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[0:00] Well, thank you again for your presence. The shortest book in the Old Testament is the Prophecy of Obadiah. It consists of just one chapter, and actually what is going on in Obadiah is very often lost on the part of the reader because all too many times we do not take the time or the trouble to do a little research on the history. But it becomes apparent when you do the history that Obadiah is actually a book that is dealing with a grudge that had taken place extending over 200 years, and the grudge continues. And not only that, but it is a grudge that exists to this very day, and it is a grudge that is about 4,000 years old, and it continues. And what we are talking about in the grudge is the animosity that exists to this very day between the descendants of Jacob and the descendants of Esau. This goes all the way back to Genesis, Genesis chapter 36. Actually, it starts even in chapter 27, and it relates to what is commonly referred to as the stolen birthright of Esau. We've done a little bit of research on that, and I brought some of the results with you, to you, I don't know when it was several months ago. But I have come to the conclusion that, contrary to what is commonly believed, the birthright was not stolen at all. It was appropriately bestowed upon the one for whom God intended it, not upon the one for whom Rebecca was going to give it. And that is an eye-opening kind of situation. So in reality, the birthright that has been often referred to as stolen from Esau was not, in fact, stolen at all. And we'll not go into that unless you want to pursue that, but I just wanted to give you the basis for the 2,000-year grudge that is going on. Actually, it was a 2,000-year grudge back then, and now it is a 4,000-year grudge that is going on. Some of you may remember, I remember how vivid it was years ago when Yasser Arafat was still alive, and so was Menachem Begin as the

[2:51] Prime Minister of Israel. And Time Magazine came out with a picture on the front cover that was just kind of electrifying, because this was in the workings of President Jimmy Carter, who had arranged for a conference between Yasser Arafat and Menachem Begin at Camp David, you may recall.

[3:19] And the caption on the picture showed Arafat and Begin facing each other, and the caption underneath it was, Jacob and Esau meet again. Or Jacob and Israel, I'm sorry, Israel and Israel meet again. And that goes back, of course, and it even predates the Jacob and Esau thing.

[3:57] So it was quite electrifying, but of course the Camp David Accord kind of fizzled. It didn't come to fruition like they had hoped. But that is a rivalry that exists to this present day. And many do not understand the mentality of the Mideast, but basically it boils down to this, just by way of prefacing our study with this. The mentality of the offense committed in the Mideast is not forgiveness.

[4:32] It is revenge. That is a very important concept that is often lost on us Westerners today, because we tend to place a great deal of value upon the virtue of forgiveness. And so we should.

[4:49] But forgiveness is a gigantic leap forward from revenge. Revenge is the concept of getting even, of repaying. And that is something that we are so prone to do in our humanness. And yet, God forbids us to do that. At least he forbids believers to do that. And the name of the game, as far as God is concerned, is you do not exact revenge upon those who have wronged you. You are to forgive. You are to bless those who curse you. Now that is a quantum leap, because it is the revenge factor that is of the flesh. It is a forgiveness factor that is of the Spirit. And the Lord is saying, I will even the score when the time comes. Vengeance is mine, not yours. And the idea being, we do not have the capacity to extend the just desserts that are deserved, because we want to get them a little bit more, for good measure, you know. But God's justice is precise, it is exact. And this is what's going to be played out in the final analysis, too, in that, in that everyone who comes under, which is everyone, everyone who comes under the assessment of God is going to be given exactly, precisely, what is deserved. Not one bit more, not one bit less. We don't have the ability to do that. We try to do that in our law courts. But we all know that justice is not always served. Because it is human beings who are dispensing justice, and sometimes the jury is wrong, and sometimes the judge is wrong, and sometimes judgment, justice is not served. There's no fairness. I mean, there's no fairness.

[6:57] That's right. Well, it is systemic to humanity. We do the best we can with our law courts, but they are far from perfect, because the people on that jury are human, and they are subject to influence, and so on.

[7:14] And the judge is human, and yet human justice is better than no justice at all, and it allows civilization to be kept intact, at least to some degree, which would otherwise be impossible. So, the mentality, however, in the East, and it remains to this day, to this day, is not forgiveness.

[7:40] It is retaliation. It is revenge. And that comes into play big time in connection with what we are going to be seeing here in the book of Obadiah. Yeah?

[7:53] Mark, didn't Esau forgive Jacob? That's a good question. Didn't Esau forgive Jacob? Well, it would appear so.

[8:04] Yeah. It would appear so. And I think it might be good if we looked at that, because there obviously is something that is taking place that does not allow that forgiveness to work in succeeding generations.

[8:20] And is it possible, is it possible that there can be some kind of reconciliation and some kind of forgiveness, maybe apology and forgiveness realized with the principles, and yet the offense passed on to succeeding generations? I think that's exactly what happens in this case, and we'll have to explore that a little bit, because it is germane to the whole study. Joe?

[8:51] Yeah, that's what it is. I mean, if somebody would do something to me, okay, I forgive him, but your friend over here who saw what that person did, what do you mean you forgive him? I mean, you've got to get in with him. You can't do that. They, those other people there, they don't forgive like you did.

[9:06] Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's the situation. Humans, other humans just don't forgive. Well, absolutely. They remember the offense. They remember the offense. Absolutely. And the point is, in the offense, whatever it was that was said or done by the offender to the offended created some kind of pain, emotional pain, physical pain, some kind of loss. That's why we call it the offense. And the thinking is, why should the one on the receiving end of that pain and that hurt have to bear the full force of it, while the one who is on the offending end, the one who's responsible for the offense, why should they get off free? Why should they not have to pay a price in connection with the pain they inflicted upon the offended one?

[10:01] And the answer to that is, there is no reason why they should get off. Because justice ought to be served. And where do you find justice in forgiveness like that? You don't. You don't.

[10:23] So what forgiveness is indicative of is something completely different, something completely out of the ordinary. Forgiveness, in the mind of God and in the provision that he has made for us, forgiveness is not an act of justice. It is an act of mercy. It is an act of grace. And that's the principle thing that makes the salvation that we have in Jesus Christ so incredibly different and so valuable is you didn't have it coming. You did not deserve it and you have no claim upon it. And what you do deserve is justice. But God withholds justice from us because he poured out his justice on his son. That is incredible. That's the gospel. He who knew no sin was made to be sin for us so that we might become the righteousness of God in him. And that is absolutely, that is God's stuff. And because, because we have enjoyed that kind of grace and that kind of forgiveness, we are to be eager to extend it to others. And this is the burden of the New Testament, really. As we forgive, as we have been forgiven, so are we to forgive. And if God has forgiven you for the wrongs you've committed against him, how dare you refuse forgiveness to another human being that has wronged you? But we know that sometimes that's the way it is. Joe? Yeah, and sometimes we don't forgive like we should. That's a sin. It's against what God wants us to do. But he still forgives us for not doing that.

[12:20] Absolutely. He still forgives us for not doing that. You know, in our hearts, I mean, that drives you to forgive the person. Right. That drives you to think about forgiving. Because I'm still forgiven even though I didn't forgive that guy or I went on and even I committed a new sin.

[12:35] Tomorrow, I'm going to commit sins today. I know so I'm going to commit some kind of sin. I might be doing one right now but talking too much. But anyhow, God's forgiven me for it. I'm forgiven for it. He looks at me, he sees Christ. I'm Christ. You know, because I'm in Christ. He sees me.

[12:50] David, did you have a comment? Oh, you must have read my mind. I was trying to avoid interrupting you. I'm conflicted.

[13:04] I'm trying to find the difference between forgiveness and just avoiding conflict or avoiding somebody who has wronged us as a nation.

[13:28] I mean, you're talking about, if we're going to get political, bite my tongue, here we go again.

[13:39] It's not retaliation when we say that what you're doing is wrong. I can't forgive you. How do I forgive you when you have wronged my entire country?

[13:55] How do I forgive you when you have wronged my entire country? When for three generations you have been lying to my children, lying to my grandchildren, lying to me as a child.

[14:11] How do I forgive you for that? I can't. I leave that to God. But I will never support you in anything you do.

[14:25] I will never vote for you. And everybody knows who the you is. It's not retaliation.

[14:35] It's just simply voting with my feet or vote with my remote. But I will not support you folks for what you've done to my country.

[14:45] Yeah, well, it isn't just a matter of forgiveness, but sometimes there is the principle of defense that comes into play as well. And defense is not a vice.

[14:58] It is a virtue. Now, that's something that we could talk about that is opening a whole new situation. And that's related to the Sermon on the Mount material.

[15:11] And forgive those who have wronged you and those who despitefully use you, bless and curse not and so on. That's a different subject and a different area. But to take off on what you have mentioned, virtually everything that creates conflict, and I'm talking about conflict in relationships, whether it is between siblings and a family, whether it is between a husband and a wife, whether it is between people in the workplace, whether it is between nations, the conflict is always, and I'd like to think that there is an exception, but I haven't been able to think of one.

[16:04] The conflict is always related to the offense. It is the offense that creates the conflict. And by offense, I mean something that one says or something that one does that injures, offends, hurts, angers the other party.

[16:28] That's the offense. And that creates a distancing between the offended and the offender.

[16:39] And I'll tell you where you can really see this so dramatically is in a marriage relationship. And we see this scene played out millions of times right here in this nation in a marriage where a husband or a wife does something or said something, very often a number of things that offends their mate, hurts them, wounds them internally.

[17:09] And the tendency, of course, is to wound back. We call that retaliation or self-defense. And when a statement is made that is hurtful and wounds one, then the tendency is for the one who is wounded to return in kind and wound them back.

[17:30] So what you have is a give and take hurt and be hurt situation going back and forth that often escalates. And then sometimes this continues apace and it gets to the place of where it starts creating a separation between the parties.

[17:52] There is an emotional separation. In other words, these people don't feel toward each other the way they used to before the offense started separating them.

[18:03] And it may even intensify to the place of where the distance becomes so great that it is no longer just emotional distance where they aren't as close as they used to be.

[18:19] Maybe they're not sleeping in the same bed anymore, but it can even degenerate to the place of where they don't even want to be in the presence of that person. And we call that separation or legal separation that sometimes ends in divorce, where these two people who couldn't stay apart now can't stay together.

[18:43] And it is all because of the offense. And the offense is something that's said or something that's done that wounds or hurts.

[18:54] Don? Getting back to the original subject you were talking about, are you saying the grudge today is actually the Palestinians against the Israelis? That's one phase of it, yes, absolutely.

[19:06] In other words, you're saying Muslim against Jews. Jews. Jews. That's involved as well. That is part and parcel of it. Yes, absolutely. They're interconnected. They're interconnected.

[19:17] But there's not within the Jewish community there's that disagreement. Well, it's a... I mean, I'm trying to get my figure around you're saying the grudge is still going on today.

[19:29] It is a strange thing how that the Jew, the nation of Israel, and there are a lot of factors that come into play in this, and I haven't got time to go into it, but one of them, of course, is the adversary.

[19:43] He's in the thick of this as well. But with the Jew, with Israel, even as it is today, it is quite remarkable how that...

[19:59] With the ongoing conflict between Arab and Jew, Muslim and Jew, it is... Well, all you need to do is look at history, and you can see that in virtually every case, and certainly this has been the way it is in my lifetime as I've followed it with the reestablishing of Israel in 1948, on the attack side, in the attack mode, has always been the Arab or the Muslim against the Jew.

[20:36] The Jew has always played the role of defense, and the offense has always been the other side. And I do not know of an exception to that.

[20:48] Now, some may say, well, now there are times when Israel started it, and they issued a preemptive strike. Or they overreacted. Well, yeah, or they overreacted.

[20:59] But when you look at the intelligence reports that were available not only to Israel but to other nations as well, it isn't difficult at all to see why Israel engaged in a preemptive strike.

[21:17] It was, again, for the purpose of survival. And the intelligence was undeniable that Israel was on the brink of annihilation, and they issued a first strike capability, which, as it turned out, was their salvation, really, was the thing that saved the nation.

[21:38] But there is such a... I can't really explain this because I don't know that it is humanly capable of being explained. But there is such a bizarre...

[21:51] And I don't know what other term to use. Such a bizarre kind of connection between the Arab and the Jew, and the Muslim and the Jew, that just defies description.

[22:07] For instance, with all of the animosity that is going on now, and the rockets that are being lobbed from Gaza over into Israel, and sometimes from Lebanon into Israel, and the damage that is done is just remarkable.

[22:27] And how do you square that with the fact that... And this has gone on, by the way, for years. They've lobbed literally hundreds and hundreds of rockets over into Israel, into populated areas, with the intent of trying to kill as many people as they can.

[22:43] And they've even had underground tunnels, whereby assassins could make their way into Israel. And yet, how do you correlate that kind of activity with the fact that the Gaza Strip, which is occupied entirely by the Palestinians, the PLO, they get all of their electricity from Israel?

[23:12] Well, what is that about? Why don't they just pull the plug on them? I mean, are you crazy or what? You're going to provide your enemy like that with electricity?

[23:26] And why... And you know, when... When Arabs are in the land of Israel, and there are a number there, and many people don't realize this, but there are Arabs...

[23:38] There are Arabs on the Jewish Knesset. And the Knesset is the equivalent of our Congress. There are Arabs that are serving in the Knesset. And many people don't understand that.

[23:51] The kind of relationship that exists there is just... Like I said, it's just bizarre. And they... If an Arab, for whatever reason, is admitted to a hospital in Israel, the fact that they are Arab, or even anti-Israeli, doesn't come into play at all.

[24:12] They pull all of the best surgeons, nurses, doctors, whatever, into a life-saving mode to try and save the life of that Arab, whether it's a child or a human being.

[24:23] And yet, you will not find reciprocating treatment in Gaza, where a Jew would be admitted. In the first place, it isn't likely that a Jew would even be admitted.

[24:33] They'd kill him before he got there. So, there's this... And when you look at this, you say, what is the creation of this imbalance? Why do these one people feel such hatred and animosity toward the Jew, but the Jew doesn't have the same kind of attitude and actions toward them?

[24:52] And we look for an explanation for that. And the only human explanation that you can come up with is that which is offered by the PLO and the Arab Muslim community.

[25:09] And they say, well, we are the ones that initiate these actions, etc., because we are the ones who've been wronged. We are the ones who've been taken advantage of.

[25:21] We are the ones who have gotten the short end of the stick and we're just fighting for our survival. Death to Israel! And that's their mentality. So, what is it that they were wronged about?

[25:34] What was it that was... what was so wrong? And do you know where this goes back? This goes all the way back to Ishmael.

[25:48] Can you believe that? Ishmael and Isaac. Are you telling me that these people have the ability and the will to maintain a grudge that is 4,000 years old?

[26:04] That is exactly what we are saying. Now, is there anything about that that is rational? No! And the biggest reason why it isn't rational is because these people lived a long time ago and the present day generation had nothing to do with those offenses, whatever they were, that were committed 4,000 years ago.

[26:28] That's crazy! So, why don't they just kiss and make up and let bygones be bygones? Well, one reason they don't is because of the fallenness of humanity and, and this is the part that is often overlooked, and the instigation and intervention often in ways that are unknown and unrealized on the part of the adversary.

[26:56] He is forever fomenting and stirring up strife, particularly in the Mideast because this guy, the Mideast is where this thing called humanity and civilization, this is where it began and this is also where it's going to culminate.

[27:13] And that guy that's interfering in keeping this going, he knows his only survival is to get rid of all Jews. Yeah, and well... He knows that's his survival at the end of the... He, he, he knows what the story is, he knows what's coming and he, he's only, he's got to get rid of all Jews.

[27:29] That's his... The plan and program of God from the beginning has centered on the use of the Jew to affect the redemption of the whole human race.

[27:44] And this is principally to be realized through the Redeemer. And the Redeemer is to come through the vehicle of Israel.

[27:55] And not only Israel but the tribe of Judah in particular. and Satan has been, he's had his sticky fingers in everything that you can imagine.

[28:09] And I, I can't go into it but... Look how they've been persecuted. He's, he's very, very much involved and he is very incommunicado. He is beneath the radar.

[28:21] He doesn't want his activities known openly and publicly because of course people would then be in defense against him. but he has pretty much free sway and there are a lot of people and if you mention, if you dare to mention this, if you stood up for the UN had an opportunity to address the UN and you told these people that perhaps their chief adversary even though they do not realize it is none other than Satan the adversary.

[28:51] They would laugh you right out of that place. They would say that is the most ridiculous thing we have ever heard and yet that too is just part of human blindness and inability to understand.

[29:04] If you, if you become a serious student of the scriptures you will see in, in ways that at times become very obvious the activity and the machinations of Satan from Genesis to Revelation.

[29:22] Joe? Yeah, because he doesn't always act by doing bad things, he'll make do things that look good to you. That's why you jump on it and that's what gets people in trouble. He said, this is good, this is a good thing, so everybody jumps on it, oh that's a good thing to do, but it's wrong, it's wrong.

[29:36] Paul wrote to the Corinthians and said that Satan himself can be transferred or appear as an angel of light. Yes, yes. And that's part of the deception. Dan?

[29:47] Martin, on this animosity between the two parties, does it have anything to do with Jesus coming to earth and calling him the son of man and God saying they are the chosen people.

[30:01] Oh, of course. And that's where, even though it existed, the original conflict with Ishmael, earlier, it's kind of reinforced now with Jesus and said, what do you mean that you're the chosen people?

[30:16] we're the chosen, and all is my God. Absolutely. In fact, a lot of the opposition that goes on, a lot of the opposition that goes on against the plan and program of God is under the radar, and those principles have absolutely no idea, no idea that they are being used by the adversary.

[30:43] They belong to that class of the useful idiots that Karl Marx spoke up. What, Joe? To your question, to your question, he's talking about, we've got some wrong sinful people governing this power now.

[30:59] We've got some people in the power that are hurting us, you know, from the top, way to the top down. Before, the only people that got there were lovers of Christ, mostly believers, you know, that got to that position.

[31:11] Now we've got people that aren't like that, and they're hurting. They're hurting, you know, I know what you mean. And so, what can you do about that, you know, and that's right, what do I do about it? Because I'm hurt the same way you are, and what you're talking about.

[31:22] And what I get from the scripture is, that's God, God's in control, he's in control, he's allowing that to happen. I mean, he's the one that's allowing the government, we've got the government today, what it's doing, God's pitiful, it's happening according to his will, he knew it would, and you've got to accept it.

[31:40] Basically, God is letting them do what they're doing. You know, he's in control, and he allows dictators, he puts dictators, the only thing, like Mar was saying earlier, about government, what God wants is basically peace, so that we can witness, basically, so his word can be spread, have peace, not war, but peace.

[32:04] You just have to accept that that's what God is planning, that's what he's letting happen, and somehow it's good for us to be in. Well, there's a degree of acceptance.

[32:14] Let me ask you a question. We'll have been raptured. Let me ask you a question, and I'm sorry, Brother Marvin. If your child is running into the street, or your grandchild, is chasing his ball into the street, and you see a truck coming down the road, you stand there, sit there now, and tell me that you're going to say, well, God's in control.

[32:38] I'm going to drop to my knees and pray that that truck doesn't run over my son. What are you going to do? Oh, you're going to run, fuck your kid, run, get hit. Exactly. Look, America's balls have gone into the street, and we are standing here, or sitting here, and we are watching as America has gone over the cliff.

[33:00] We have gone off the cliff. We are not just aborting kids anymore, we are killing live-born babies. Oh, right. What could be worse than that?

[33:11] Oh, yeah, right. There is. It does get worse. Now they're going to authorize eating us. I agree with you. Well, this is all, I appreciate your comments, guys, both of you. This is all part of the package we're dealing with.

[33:23] Rick, we'll let you finalize this. Oh, the other thing I was going to say, I think it all goes back to man trying to help God, because God told Abraham what was going to happen, but Abraham didn't have God's face, and he didn't understand God's timing, but he was going to help God out, and he went and had a child with his concubine, and said, I'm going to help God out.

[33:43] I ain't going to wait on him to have a child that's there. Yeah, you're right. He went to the concubine Haggai, and that's where Ishmael, who was born first, and that's the art. Well, Ishmael has birthright over life, and it's just man trying to help God do his job instead of letting God Amen.

[34:00] I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more. Hey, guys, I really enjoy your input, all of you, and believe it or not, believe it or not, we are undertaking the prophet Obadiah.

[34:13]  Maybe we'll even get there next week. So, thank you for your kind attention.