[0:00] Well, good morning. I guess this worked out okay after all, but I thought there for a moment we were going to have to postpone or cancel the class because you can't very well expect ordinary patrons who come in for a fellowship and a meal to listen to a Bible class that they did not opt for.
[0:22] So fortunately they left in a timely manner, so we'll just proceed right on as we usually do. And I have a handout for you. I think you probably all have notebooks, and if you didn't bring them with you, you can add this to it when you get home.
[0:38] This is, apart from Scripture itself, this is my very most favorite and I think important quote that I've ever heard.
[0:52] Next to the text of Scripture, I think you will never read anything that is so important as this, and I want you to have a copy of it. You may recognize it right off. It's the year 1535 when Miles Coverdale, who gave us the first printed copy of the English Bible, gave us these guidelines for interpreting it.
[1:16] It shall greatly help you to understand Scripture, if thou mark, not only what is spoken or written, but to whom, of whom, with what words, at what time, where, to what intent, with what circumstances, considering what goeth before, and what followeth.
[1:35] If we could somehow convince all of Christendom to follow this advice, I think it would eliminate a whole lot of division and dissension.
[1:47] It would eliminate a lot of cults and isms. It would eliminate a lot of problems and a lot of confusion. It is just sane, common sense advice. So, it is three-hole punch. Take one if you would, please, and put it in your notebook.
[2:02] We've got more copies if you need them. If there aren't enough there, I think there probably are. And we are going to, today, engage Revelation chapter 4.
[2:16] We are going to try as much as lieth within us to take one chapter each of our sessions together. I know that the content of Revelation, of course, deserves much more attention than what we'll be able to give it, but so does all the rest of Scripture.
[2:33] Yet, we have to be somewhat judicious with our time. And we will do our best to get through this in one session for each of the chapters. So, let's begin with a word of prayer, shall we?
[2:48] We are grateful, our Father, for another time to gather together and to focus upon what you have provided for us. And we pray that as we do so, our hearts and minds will be illumined to the truth that is before us.
[3:01] We pray for a facility of understanding and appreciating the text. Thank you for this beautiful time of the year to enjoy. Thank you for an occasion of fellowship like this and for the warmth that is exhibited here in our atmosphere.
[3:17] We ask your blessing upon our meal and upon the study that we engage. We pray in Christ's name. Amen. Amen. If you will take the sheet that you've been given, the text of Scripture from the 26th Translation New Testament, we'll be looking at chapter 4.
[3:35] For a page number, it is 1205 down in the corner. And then we will continue on the reverse side. I think you all have this particular text, but if you don't, we have additional copies of it.
[3:53] As you go through the book of Revelation, you will discover that just about all of the chapters begin with identifying the location where these things are transpiring.
[4:06] And I want to, right at the outset here, point out to you how key that is in identifying and interpreting the contents that are going to follow.
[4:16] So, if you will look at your text in chapter 4 and verse 1, the Apostle John says, After these things I looked and behold a door standing open in heaven.
[4:35] Now, that's really important because it identifies the locale from which he is seeing these things. And then as you come over to, you'll note that in chapter 4, chapter 5, and chapter 6, this all continues with the same venue.
[4:56] And then in chapter 7, at the beginning of verse 1, the text reads, After this, I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth.
[5:10] So now, the location has shifted. It has gone from heaven to earth. That is going to be very important when it comes to interpreting the text.
[5:21] Then, if you will look at chapter 8, When he broke the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.
[5:33] I remember hearing J. Vernon McGee talk about this particular verse on the radio. And he said he was trying to convince his wife one time that there were not going to be any women in heaven.
[5:45] And she said, Well, Vernon, what in the world are you talking about? And he said, Well, it says right there, in chapter 8, in verse 1, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.
[5:56] But I don't think his missus really appreciated that or caught the humor. So, we will not, we will not suggest the same. We'll just say that there is silence in heaven for about the space of half an hour.
[6:09] Then, notice chapter 9. The fifth angel sounded, I saw a star from heaven which had fallen to the earth.
[6:20] And then chapter 10, and verse 1. And I saw another strong angel coming down out of heaven clothed with a cloud. And so it goes on through the revelation.
[6:33] So, we're going to see, as we move on, how the scene is going to be shifting back and forth between heaven and earth as John identifies these things that are taking place.
[6:46] And that will be very, very key to understanding the meaning of it. So, let's begin now, if we may, with chapter 4 and the vision that John is being given.
[6:57] Remember, he is in the Spirit on the Lord's Day. And this simply means that he is experiencing, for lack of a better term, I don't know if I want to call this an out-of-the-body experience or what, but at any rate, he is in a spiritual kind of capacity.
[7:21] And one gets the impression that in a physical body, he might not be able to appreciate these things. I don't know that for sure, but that's the drift that I'm getting. There is a peculiarity about his being in the Spirit.
[7:35] Spirit. And in this state, he is going to be called up to heaven. He is going to be given a preview, a panoramic preview of everything that is yet to take place upon the earth.
[7:55] We are of the position, and I realize that not everybody agrees with this from a hermeneutical or interpretive standpoint, point, but we are of the opinion that with the conclusion of Revelation chapter 3, wherein the seven churches are addressed, that following that period, you will find nothing more of the church mentioned in Revelation until you get to the very end.
[8:29] The reason being, the church is not involved. The church that is present in the first three chapters is gone. It is removed from the earth and is not in any way a major player in the events that will be transpiring on the earth.
[8:48] This is what we refer to as the rapture, and our reference for that, of course, is 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 and 1 Corinthians 15. So the church is removed from the scene, and what we have taken place has to do with worship that will be occurring in heaven and a time of incredible tribulation, turmoil, conflagration on the earth during this time after the church is removed.
[9:19] So John opens chapter 4, and by the way, be reminded also, these chapter divisions, nothing inspired about them. as John was inspired to write this document, the Revelation, he didn't write it in chapters, he didn't write it in verses, he just wrote it in succession on a scroll, and we have it broken down for convenience sake into chapters and verses.
[9:44] after this I looked, and behold, a door was opened in heaven, and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me.
[10:00] Now we're going to see this expression a lot, as it were, or it was like. I suspect that John is using this kind of terminology because he has never experienced anything like this before.
[10:17] He doesn't know what to call it. So what he calls it is the thing that it most reminds him of as he tries to describe it.
[10:31] John, as a human, has to speak from his own reference point. He has to describe these things in accordance with what he has experienced in his life up to this time.
[10:45] And he uses this expression, the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet. He didn't say it was a trumpet. He said, reminds me of a trumpet.
[10:59] Sounds like a trumpet. I think that has to do with the loudness and with the clarity of it. It was a sharp, blaring, piercing sound.
[11:14] A sound that he had never heard before but if he had to say what did it sound like, he would have to say, well, it sounded more like a trumpet than anything else that I've ever heard.
[11:29] Frankly, I think it was just indescribable. Supernatural and indescribable. But if you're going to communicate to humans the essence of what you saw, you've got to find some kind of human terminology.
[11:47] And this is what the Spirit of God comes up with, utilizing John's experience, John's vocabulary, etc. It is as it were, of a trumpet talking with me.
[12:00] Basic English says, And the first voice came to my ears like the sound of a horn, which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.
[12:18] That means these things are on track, and they are definite. These are not a list of maybes, or possibilities.
[12:31] These are specific, definite things that are going to take place hereafter. And immediately, I was in the Spirit.
[12:44] New English Bible says that once I was caught up by the Spirit. And behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne, and he that sat was to look upon, now here we go again, like a jasper and a sardine stone.
[13:10] He doesn't say that's what they are, but he's saying that's the closest thing I can use to identify what I am looking at. apparently this was dazzling, brilliant, effervescent, shining, glowing, it had a gloriousness about it, the likes of which he is at a loss to describe.
[13:34] And the best he can come up with is like a jasper and a sardine stone, a crystalline brightness of jasper. And there was a rainbow round about the throne.
[13:49] In sight, like, unto, and emerald. And again, we've got the description like, or as unto. This brilliant light is the likes of which John has never witnessed before in all of his human experience.
[14:10] And he is groping for words to describe what he is seeing. This is otherworldly stuff. It is supernatural. It is heavenly, and it is being revealed to a mere mortal.
[14:23] This rainbow round about the throne in sight like unto an emerald. And round about the throne were four and twenty seats.
[14:35] More properly described as thrones as some of the other renderings have given it. These are four and twenty thrones. And upon the seats or thrones I saw four and twenty elders sitting clothed in white raiment and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
[15:01] Who are these individuals? This is one of the perplexities of the book of the Revelation and lots of speculation has been offered as to their identity.
[15:13] probably one of the most common interpretations is that well these are the twelve apostles and the twelve patriarchs the sons of Jacob who comprised the twelve tribes of Israel.
[15:28] However that is simply a guess. We do not know exactly who they are. They are not identified. I am confident of one thing and that is they have to be humans.
[15:41] These cannot be angelic beings. They have to be humans because they will also be identified as people who have been redeemed.
[15:54] That puts them in a human category and it limits them to a human category because there is no indication that there is any redemption for angels. So these twenty-four individuals are going to play a rather strategic role in what they witness and if you've got your Bible I know you don't have this in your twenty-six translation New Testament but if you would look at chapter chapter five of Revelation and verse four one one of the elders one of these twenty-four elders said to me stop weeping behold the lion that is from the tribe of Judah the root of David has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals and then come over to chapter eleven if you would please we just want to identify and place these individuals because they will be coming up again chapter eleven of
[16:55] Revelation and verse sixteen and the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worship God saying and then it goes on to their paean of worship then in chapter fourteen and verse three and they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders and here are the elders that surface again and then one more reference if you will please in Revelation chapter nineteen and verse four and the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worship God who sits on the throne saying amen hallelujah so these two classes of
[17:55] I guess I would say individuals the twenty-four apparently are elders human beings I do not know for sure their point of origin it is a possibility they could be representing the twelve tribes and the twelve apostles but that's just a guess we do not know we do know that they are redeemed that requires them to be human and as we go back to Revelation chapter four where we began our study we will see something about these other curious individuals who surface that are referred to as beasts in the King James which is not a very good rendering and living creatures would be more accurate as it is rendered here in the new American standard so let's just take a look at these twenty-four elders they are in verse four of chapter four they are clothed in white garments that is the color of purity spotlessness it is a color that is peculiar to those who have been cleansed though your sins be as scarlet they shall be as white as snow etc so
[19:08] I think this has reference to as I've said redeemed individuals of whatever their identity sitting clothed in white garments and golden crowns on their heads now in the Greek language there are two different words that are used for crown one is the word a diadem as in the song bring forth the royal diadem and crown him lord of all that's one of the words that's used for crowns diadem but the other word is the word that is used for a victor's crown and it is the word in the Greek stephanos stephanos from which the male name Stephen or Stephan is taken and it means a crown that has been earned as a reward for toil or sacrifice it is a crown referred to that that the apostle
[20:15] Paul mentioned that the Lord the righteous judge will give me at that day and not only to me only but also to all those who love their appearing his appearing that's that kind of a crown so these individuals who are wearing these crowns these four and twenty elders have have accomplished something that classifies them as overcomers and this is a word that's going to be used frequently as well it means victorious it means one who wears a crown because they have achieved victory and we're thinking in terms of moral spiritual victory and it could be even more involved than that but let us move on if we may the golden crowns are on their heads and from the throne from the throne verse five proceed flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder I don't know about you but when I think on earth of the most awesome incredible display of sheer energy and power
[21:26] I don't think there is anything to compare with lightning it is an awesome phenomenon we tend to think of it as just an element of nature and in a sense it is in that God has set certain forces in motion and certain balances in place so that when different atmospheric and temperature conditions are made these things come forth as thunder and lightning and I think we can all agree that there is nothing on earth that can compare with the raw energy of lightning that is unleashed the amount of power and energy in a lightning bolt is absolutely stupefying and here it is something that is characterizing this scene and John describes it as flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder it is a mighty roaring booming there is a lot of commotion going on here and it really has
[22:33] John's attention and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne which are the seven spirits of God throughout revelation we see two numbers repeated constantly one is seven the other is twelve they occur so often that it is impossible to classify them as a coincidence there is a definite pattern to the use of these numbers seven and twelve and four occurs a number of times too seven lamps of fire burning before the throne which are the seven spirits of God I don't know exactly what that means either before the throne there was as it were a sea of glass like crystal he doesn't say that's what it is but he says that's what it looks like to me that's what it reminds me of he uses the word
[23:34] I think sea because of its enormous expanse it isn't a pond it isn't even a lake he calls it a sea this thing is huge absolutely huge and it is like crystal it has a clarity to it that is just stunning and in the center and around the throne four living creatures full of eyes in front and behind well what in the world is this King James I think says for beasts which is a very unfortunate translation there are two different words for animals or beasts used in the Greek and one is therion and that refers to wild beasts such as you would find in the jungle or in the field there is another word that is zoe from which we get the word zoology and that refers to simply living creatures as opposed to any kind of wild beast or untamed beast these are more correctly certainly more correctly than beasts which we tend to think of as being vicious or animal like sometimes men are referred to as beasts because that is the way they behave we will see beasts human beasts surfacing later in the revelation who are beastly in their behavior and they are called beasts but these are simply living creatures of a particular genre or class or genus unlike anything else that has apparently ever been created they are not human we look at the description of them and we tend to think of them as being really bizarre
[25:40] I mean just very odd very strange they would probably look at human beings and think the same thing because God in his creative capacity in his diversity creates everything in accordance with his good pleasure and I am sure that these living creatures that are full of eyes in front and behind and immediately that speaks to us of something grotesque what in the world full of eyes and this perhaps speaks of their being able to see or appreciate things that might escape others full of eyes in front and behind and the first creature was like a lion once again we've got this expression he doesn't say the first creature was a lion doesn't say that but he says
[26:48] I try to describe it and that's what it reminds me of it looks more like a lion than anything and the second creature like a calf it's quite a leap and the third creature had a face like that of a man and the fourth creature was like a flying eagle these are really strange beings a number of scholars have pointed out that there seems to be a connection albeit perhaps a loose connection but nonetheless when we're talking about things that this reminds us of these descriptions seem to fit some characterization of the four gospels when you think in terms of Matthew Matthew our Lord
[27:52] Jesus is described and presented in a royal way as the lion of the tribe of Judah it is the kingly line that Matthew sets forth and when we think of the king of beast we tend to think of the lion so there may be a loose connection there at least between Matthew and a lion and what we see here in this beast or this living creature as a lion and the second creature like a calf and a calf or an animal a beast of burden think in terms of Mark and what does Mark characterize Christ as a servant son of man came to seek and to save came not to be ministered unto but the minister and he is frequently thought of as a servant in connection with
[28:55] Mark's gospel and then when we come to the physician's gospel Dr. Luke who would know more than anyone else of his day about humanity and Christ is presented in his humanity as an offspring of a human being Mary his mother who provided the humanity for our Lord and throughout the gospel of Luke as well as the other gospels but in Luke's gospel there is an emphasis on Christ being the son of man the son of man and the genealogy is Mary's genealogy which is the genealogy of her humanity and Christ's humanity and then when we come to John what have we the deity of Christ how that he is above and exalted over all and perhaps the eagle in flight and its soaring presents that picture as well as anything and that could very well be and the four living creatures each one of them having six wings are full of eyes around and within and day and night they do not cease to say holy holy holy is the
[30:19] Lord God the almighty who was and who is and who is to come is that the totality of their job description we tend to think that that would become very tiresome wouldn't it day and night and this is all they do this is their job well if that is what you are equipped and designed to do it ought to present no problem and we do not have any reason to believe that these living creatures are thinking about striking for higher pay or better working hours or shorter work week or anything else these are creatures that are supernaturally created just as everything was created for a specific purpose they are designed for that they are patterned for that they obviously are very contented with that so don't feel sorry for these four creatures whom you think would be terribly bored because wouldn't you if you had to do the same thing well we're talking about a different sphere of being but you know there is no way that we can escape an earlier reference of these and we need to go back keep your place here if you would please and come back to
[31:40] Ezekiel chapter one I think there is a connection in fact I'm confident there is a connection and we are admonished or should be admonished to allow scripture to interpret scripture I am of the opinion personally that no mere mortal has the wisdom or the ability to interpret the scriptures and I certainly include myself with that that is why we try to take the position that the Bible has to provide its own interpretation and we allow it to do that by comparing scripture with scripture because the Bible deliberately does not speak its mind all in one place it scattered throughout the book from Genesis to Revelation that provides us with a basis for study and examination of comparing scripture with scripture because that's how the
[32:43] Bible interprets itself one passage sheds light upon another passage whereas if you take the passage all by itself try to understand it alone the likelihood is you're going to reach some wrong conclusions and we've often heard about people reaching bizarre interpretations of scripture by taking something out of context you can also take something and ignore wherever else it is used and it will have the same effect it will certainly lead you astray when you come back to Ezekiel chapter one and look if you will at verse four Ezekiel says here he's given visions in verse one he's seeing visions of God and in verse four we read that as I looked behold a storm wind was coming from the north great cloud with fire flashing forth continually and a bright light around it almost sounds familiar doesn't it and in its midst something like here's that like again something like glowing metal in the midst of the fire and within it there were figures resembling four living beings and this was their appearance they had human form each of them had four faces and four wings human form well it would appear that they had a head that they had a torso that they had legs but everything else about them was different they had four faces think of it if you if you had a face like I've got facing you and then another face here and another face here and another face out the back and yet a kind of humanoid appearance this is really really strange maybe maybe it's why God only made four of them
[35:00] I don't know but these are human like but they are not human beings as we know human beings their legs were straight their feet were like a calf's hoof and they gleamed like burnished bronze under their wings on their four sides were human hands as for the faces and wings of the four of them their wings touched one another their faces did not turn when they moved each went straight forward as for the form of their faces each had the face of a man all four had the face of a lion on the right and the face of a bull on the left or a calf and all four had the face of an eagle such were their faces their wings were spread out above each had two touching another being and two covering their bodies and each went straight forward wherever the spirit was about to go they would go without turning as they went now look if you will at
[36:23] Ezekiel chapter 10 here we have an expanse cherubim these are angelic beings cherubim and seraphim something like a sapphire stone in appearance resembling a throne appeared above them this is just all tying in with the revelation passage in verse 5 verse 4 the glory of the Lord went up from the cherub to the threshold of the temple and the temple was filled with the cloud and the court was filled with the brightness of the glory of the Lord now this is all a vision that Ezekiel is being given moreover the sound of the wings of the cherubim was heard as far as the outer court 6 the plot thickens and it came about when he commanded the man clothed in linen saying take fire from between the whirling wheels from between the cherubim he entered and stood beside a wheel and the cherub stretched out his hand from between the cherubim to the fire which was between the cherubim took some and put it into the hands of one clothed in linen who took it and went out and the cherubim appeared to have the form of a man's hand under their wings and
[37:59] I looked and behold four wheels beside the cherubim one wheel beside each cherub the appearance of the wheels was like the gleam of a tarshish stone as for their appearance all four of them had the same likeness as if one wheel were within another wheel this is Ezekiel's wheel within a wheel and it is amazingly perplexing it ties in I am convinced with revelation and it sheds a little bit of light on it and when you come down to verse 14 I think it becomes undeniable each one had four faces the first face was the face of a cherub the second face was the face of a man the third face of a lion the fourth the now on your way back to revelation stop at isaiah isaiah chapter six and one of the reasons that I think we find so much reference to this in the old testament is simply because we will discover as we go through it that more than anything else revelation is an intensely
[39:19] Jewish book and that should be easily understood when you realize that the church is removed from the scene by the time we get to chapter four and there just isn't that much to be said about it because it has already been taken off the scene notice if you will in Isaiah chapter six in the year of king Uzziah's death I saw the Lord sitting on a throne lofty and exalted now Isaiah is being given with the train of his robe filling the temple seraphim stood above him this is a plural of beings a plurality of beings a seraph s-e-r-a-p-h is one when you add the I am Hebrew plural it simply means more than one we do not know how many seraphim there's just a plurality of seraphim these these are different from cherubim cherubim are created angelic beings seraphim are created angelic beings we do not know for sure what the clear distinction is between them but they seem to be a limited class of angelic beings not to be confused with I guess what you would say your ordinary run-of-the-mill angel these are different seraphim stood above him each having six wings with two he covered his face why he would need to cover his face
[40:56] I do not know with two he covered his feet why he needs to cover his feet I do not know and with two he flew he called out one to another holy holy holy is the lord god of hosts all right now back to revelation if we may we'll see if we can conclude this we have the same expression in verse eight they cease not to say holy holy holy some are of the opinion and I'm not in a position to deny it that this thrice repeated expression of holiness is in reference to the triunity of our God the holy holy holy it is a way of emphasizing in the Hebrew a pronounced fact it is assigning holiness and righteousness to the father to the son to the holy spirit holy holy holy is the lord god the almighty who was and who is and who is to come this is past present and future and when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne who lives forever and ever the four the 24 elders will fall down before him who sits on the throne and will worship him who lives forever and ever and will cast their stephanos their crowns before the throne it is as if they are suggesting by this act that they have somehow in whatever situation they have been triumphant they have been overcomers it is an expression used frequently in the revelation as well as in some of other
[42:56] John's other writings and the reward or the crown is a reward for their having overcome and for their faithfulness crown one gets the impression that even though they have after a human fashion earned or deserved the crown through their loyalty or their faithfulness or their persevering they still consider themselves essentially unworthy of the crown the idea being expressed is the one before whom they are casting their crowns that they have been awarded is the one who truly is responsible for it all and he deserves the crowns so they from a position of unworthiness cast their crowns before the one whom they consider to be worthy and as they do that they are saying worthy art thou and by the way this is connected with the word worship and the word worship is related to the idea of value the consider the thought of value being assigned to the object of worship we talk about worthy is the lamb that was slain and what we are conveying is that there is just one who is deserving of worship when you worship you are assigning worth and value to something and that is precisely what they are doing here worthy art thou our lord and our god to receive glory and honor and power for thou didst create all things and because of thy will they existed and were created right here in this one verse we have the answer to the question that has plagued philosophers and theologians for centuries and it is simply this why is there something rather than nothing why is there anything and the answer is in this verse for thy pleasure they were created for because of
[45:37] God's will it simply means the word pleasure and pleased of course come from the same root and it simply means that God created and brought into existence what he has brought into existence for just one reason it pleased him it was his pleasure to do so he needs no other rationale but we do want to make very clear that God did not create anything or anyone out of a sense of need for God existed when there were no angels no cherubim no seraphim no humans no Satan no Lucifer no anything and yet God apparently was quite contented because as the all sufficient God he has no needs that he cannot meet within his own person so
[46:39] God does not go outside of himself in order to create so as to satisfy himself or enhance himself in any way he is the self sufficient self sustaining self existing God and anything and all that he has brought into existence is simply because it pleased him to do so he needs no other reason he has no other reason we live and move and have our being at his pleasure we serve and live at his pleasure and he needs no other rationale why did you create anything God I just wanted to do it simple as that it just pleased me to do it and some are of the opinion that he did it in order that he might show his mercy that he might show his wrath that he might show his justice that he might show his grace that he might show his love I'm sure that all of those things probably came into play but by and large most of all he did it simply because it pleased him and this of course is a verse that we creationists take very seriously this is a creative
[47:51] God and a creative hand of God at work and it leaves no room for origins from any other source this is simply the creator God so we did get through chapter four after a fashion not with very much detail so it's probably engendered some questions or comments and I'd be glad to entertain them anybody well if you don't have any questions maybe I'll ask you well you can you can gather there are a number of puzzling things about this anybody want to take a crack at identifying the 24 elders frankly I think the four living creatures are a lot easier to identify as just special created agents as opposed to the 24 elders I've never been able to be comfortable with anything anyone you realize the original derivation of the word elder starts in the
[48:57] Old Testament I think it's well I think I know it's an exodus it might be in Genesis too but it simply has to do with older men chronologically older men and when you take a group of human beings the elders are the men in the group who are the oldest stands to reason they are classified as the elders but we are never told how old an elder is we are not given any age number for elders and I suspect that that might be by design because that leaves a certain amount of relativity involved so you take for instance elders plurality of elders are appointed and are involved in in churches and we find this throughout
[49:58] Paul's epistles where he is addressing a plurality of elders and it's always in the plural and they seem to be the leadership in the church well how old does one have to be to be an elder or a leader in a church if you put an age stipulation on it what are you going to do if you are in an area where there just happens to be a church that has been brought into existence but has a very youthful membership maybe your elder is 42 years old so it is a relative thing and in that particular congregation he would be the elder but in many congregations a 42 year old would be one of the younger men so perhaps the spirit of God saw fit to leave that kind of open ended because an elder would be determined by the makeup of the group and in some congregations
[51:05] I would be a real elder but there are places where I'm sure I could go and find congregations where I would be disqualified as an elder because there would be a lot of men there in their 90s so it's a relative thing Marie well I the older ones I think the aged is a synonym and aged it all depends on what you're comparing it with I think it is a relative term we do not have any age stipulation either in the old or the new testament regarding that other comments or questions anyone yes well bishops are found in the church also in the
[52:08] Peter refers to these the bishop it is the word it's a word that comes from the Greek and the word is episkopos episkopos and it's a compound Greek word epi means upon or over in the Greek epi upon or over and skopos is the word from which we get the word scope as in periscope telescope microscope and it means to look and you put epis and skopos together it means to overlook or oversee so a bishop is one who oversees a congregation and loosely speaking you would consider a pastor and a bishop pretty much synonymous and I would consider even an elder as being synonymous with that
[53:09] I think the terms are kind of used interchangeably and then there is another term that presbyteros presbyteros in the Greek and that refers to an elder one or an elder man and we get the word presbyterian from that so that has to do with that form of government as well so and the food is here don't want it to get cold please go right ahead and eat yes I'll do that thank you I will do that if you promise not to eat my eggs and potatoes I'll be right over yeah sure do which one was it you need okay this one this one we were working from the day they were the and there they