October Message - Catholics and Protestants

[0:00] Well, thanks to all of you again for being here this morning. I think this is probably our largest group yet, and we are really happy to see you all here. So thank you for coming and sharing the morning with us.

[0:10] Looking at the calendar, it appears that our next meeting is scheduled then for November 27, which will be the Tuesday morning that immediately follows Thanksgiving.

[0:24] It will be the last Tuesday of the month, as is usually the case. And this session this morning may be recorded for quality control purposes.

[0:36] So watch your language. And we will have a kind of open forum, much like we did the last time, and I cannot do otherwise because of the date that is upon us today.

[0:54] And that, of course, is this is the actual day for the 500th anniversary of what is commonly referred to as the Protestant Reformation.

[1:07] However, there is a misnomer involved there because it was not Protestantism that was undergoing Reformation.

[1:19] It was Roman Catholicism, and it was a colossal failure because Roman Catholicism was not Reformed. It remained much intact the way it was before any expression for Reformation was voiced.

[1:36] And there are some very good reasons for that, some of which we've looked at on Sunday morning for the past few weeks. We've devoted some of our content to the Reformation period because, after all, we'll have to wait another 500 years for it to come around again for the second 500, and I don't think any of us are going to be here.

[2:01] So it is with real appreciation that we are able to celebrate something that has had such an enormous impact on so much of the world.

[2:16] And yet the issues over which it surfaced remain. They have not at all been resolved. And this has led to one of my favorite sayings that this congregation has heard me say so many times over and over and over.

[2:35] And so say I now again, the issue is authority. Always has been, always will be. That goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden.

[2:46] When the decision was made by Eve and by Adam as to whose authority they would recognize. We are all the result, in part at least, of their having recognized the wrong authority.

[3:07] And all of humanity has been paying a price from that day unto this. So that, of course, relates to the fallenness of humanity, and that's the explanation for why the world is the way it is.

[3:22] So we want to just have an open forum kind of discussion and talk about this subject of the Reformation and its successes and its failures and some of the consequences thereof and give you an opportunity to make any kind of contribution or ask any kind of question that you want.

[3:46] And we will be glad to entertain that. Years ago, I guess it was, I don't know if memory serves me correctly, it might have been in the 1980s, when there was a real concerted effort on the part of many evangelicals and many Roman Catholics to get together and try to heal the wounds that have existed for 500 years and see if they could not find some significant commonality.

[4:22] Because there are a number of issues over which Roman Catholicism and Protestantism are in complete agreement. And some of them are very important issues, such as the Trinity and things like that.

[4:38] So we'll be talking about that a little later. And there were notables lined up on both sides of this issue. And they held a big conclave whereby they got together and compared nymphs and had meals together and shook hands and prayed together and so on.

[4:55] In a sincere attempt to rectify some of the divisions that existed. I remember one of my heroes, Chuck Colson, was on the side that was insisting that Roman Catholics and Protestants didn't have that much to separate them.

[5:17] And they really ought to be together. And think of how much more could be accomplished with their being unified as opposed to their being divided like they are and have been for hundreds and hundreds of years.

[5:31] And I have a great deal of admiration and appreciation for Chuck Colson. Like I said, he was one of my heroes ever since I read his book out of the Watergate thing.

[5:41] You know, he was Nixon's hatchet man in the book that he wrote, Born Again. Wonderful book. Tremendous testimony. And through that Watergate experience, Chuck Colson came into a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.

[5:57] And he was happily married to a Roman Catholic wife whose name was Patty. And as far as I know, I don't know if she's still alive or not, but Chuck Colson passed away not too long ago.

[6:10] But his wife Patty was a devout Roman Catholic. And up until that time, Chuck Colson was pretty much nothing. But when he came to faith in Christ, of course, that all changed.

[6:21] As far as I know, his wife remained in the Catholic Church. And this get-together that I'm sure had good, sincere intentions behind it caused a lot of controversy on both sides.

[6:38] But probably it caused more controversy on the side of the Protestant evangelicals than it did on the part of the Roman Catholics. I'm sure that the Catholic hierarchy was greatly encouraged by it and had high hopes for it.

[6:54] Because their intent, of course, is that the erring and straying brethren, who happens to be us, would come home to the church.

[7:05] Which, of course, would be the mother church, the Roman Catholic Church. And that did not even come close to happening as a result of that meeting. Even though I think there were a few bridges that were built and there were some good feelings, I'm sure, that came out of it.

[7:20] But nothing significantly has really changed. And the reason for that, and the one principal sticking point, remains.

[7:31] And that is that pesky verse in Romans 1, 16 and 17. That touched this whole thing off.

[7:44] Which I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ. For it is the power of God through faith unto salvation to everyone who believes. And the passage goes on to explain that the just shall live by faith.

[8:02] Which literally means the person who is justified or declared righteous by God is going to have life, not merely physical life, which we all have at the present, but is going to have eternal spiritual life based solely upon believing.

[8:28] That is faith. It's called justification by faith. And Paul makes it very clear. In fact, let's turn to it, if we may, just to stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance.

[8:39] And I'm sure you are familiar with the passage. And we spent just a few minutes in it this past Sunday morning. But it is Romans chapter 4. And every time I read or hear this verse, I cannot help but think of Dave Weinbrenner, Marie's first husband, who was also one of my mentors and one of my spiritual brothers in Christ.

[9:09] And this was his life verse, his favorite verse, Romans 4, 5. And Marie even has it built into her email address, if you've ever noticed that and sent her an email.

[9:22] And in Romans 4 and verse 5, But to him that worketh not, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

[9:41] And we'll not go back there except to just make reference to it. And you'll note that as the chapter opens, the apostle is referencing Abraham.

[9:53] What shall we say concerning Abraham our father has found? And so on. He's using him as the example. And there, Paul makes it very clear that Abraham was declared righteous by God solely on the basis of believing what God told him.

[10:12] Now, I must admit that I have some unresolved difficulty getting a clear picture of salvation in mind in the Old Testament.

[10:30] We do not have the clear-cut, straightforward expression of the requirements for salvation in the Old Testament that we have in the New.

[10:46] And the New makes it very, very clear. And we've just read a text that explains that. But in the Old Testament, and I'm talking about Genesis 15, 6, where the text says, And Abraham believed God.

[11:05] That is, he believed what God told him regarding his seed and his future and his generations that would follow after him and so on.

[11:16] That Abraham believed what God told him and he was justified by faith. And that's the argument that Paul is making here in Romans 4.

[11:30] He's saying, Abraham our father was declared righteous by God solely on the basis of his believing what God told him. Now, let me put that in even simpler terms.

[11:41] Abraham did not have the righteousness in quality or quantity that would be necessary in order for God to accept him.

[11:54] Because God just has one standard. And God's standard is perfection. It is the same as his character and his righteousness requires.

[12:05] He cannot require less than that which is compatible with his own being. So he requires perfection. Abraham couldn't need that.

[12:18] Neither could anybody else. But what God told Abraham was simply this. And this is a ton of grace coming your way. What God told Abraham was, You do not have and cannot provide the kind of righteousness that I require in order for me to be accepting of you.

[12:41] So, if you will believe me, just put your confidence, your trust, your faith in me, I will accept that in place of the righteousness that you do not have.

[12:57] Now, such a deal. That is just incredible. That's all God was asking. To just believe me.

[13:09] And how many times have I told you what God wants more than anything else? It's to be believed. Because when we do not believe him, it is tantamount to saying he's not worthy of being believed.

[13:24] And frankly, that is an insult to the Almighty. And he does not take insults well. So Abraham simply believed God.

[13:39] But was even his belief perfect? No. Not even that. It was an imperfect belief. And that's the only kind we've got. And I think I dealt with this on the last, either the last or the next to the last Christianity Clarified that was released.

[13:58] I don't know exactly which one it was. And I touched on it also in the connecting with God. Will God accept our imperfect faith? Well, God has to accept our imperfect faith because it's the only kind we've got.

[14:13] You know. And we make a case for that too. So Abraham became the primary example of what it means to be declared righteous by God simply by just believing God.

[14:27] And that is the issue that still separates Christendom that is Protestant from Christendom that is Roman Catholic. And as I mentioned earlier too, by the way, just for sake of clarification, you realize that we are all Catholic.

[14:42] Even Protestants are Catholic in a technical sense because the word Catholic simply means universal. Universal. So all believers belong to the Catholic Church, the universal church.

[14:59] Where the difference arises, of course, is Roman Catholic, which installs the Pope as the Bishop of Rome and puts him in a position of authority over all of the so-called faithful.

[15:16] And Roman Catholic, of course, we are not. That's what Luther broke from. So, that issue that Paul is expressing here in Romans 4 was looked upon by his Jewish constituents as some newfangled truth that is not supported by the law of Moses.

[15:43] And the charge that was consistently leveled against Paul by his Jewish countrymen was, this man teaches against the law of Moses.

[15:55] And he never did. He did teach against their interpretation of the law of Moses. But Paul is using Abraham as an example to say what I am proclaiming.

[16:09] This justification by faith is nothing new. It goes all the way back to our father Abraham. And actually, it even predates that. Because we know that Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

[16:27] And Noah became a believer on the basis of God's grace as well. But Abraham is thought of as the father of the faithful and certainly the father of the nation of Israel. So, this issue of faith and works or faith apart from works has to this day remained the sticking point.

[16:51] And there are other things, of course, that separate us. But that's the main thing. And perhaps if it were not for that, much could be overlooked. So, what I would like to do is just give you a couple of statements of their position regarding authority and then we'll just open it for any comments that you may have.

[17:18] This, by the way, was a rather lengthy document and it was provided to us by Carolyn Jordan. Many of you know Carolyn. she and Tim are former Roman Catholics and they they went out on us every winter.

[17:37] They're in Florida right now. But she did some extensive research on this and she even she even had an appointment with with one of the local Catholic priests and went over these items with him and much to her amazement he essentially agreed with her.

[17:58] that much that had been set forth in the name of Catholicism and supposedly under the authority of God was just would not pass muster so far as the scriptures were concerned but it was something that they were pretty much locked into and there was no way it could be changed and that was the degree of satisfaction that she got from him.

[18:24] So this is a compilation of several things and by the way all of this information is available on the internet it's also available in any reputable encyclopedia and particularly you can secure from the library if you want to research it and they have copies I'm sure of the Roman Catholic encyclopedia their dogmas and all of that so the information is all there and to just give you a brief idea of this this is from their own writings this is teaching the Catholic church this is taken from one of the volumes in the library of congress and God could only entrust his truth to the sacred books in conjunction with the living tradition the written word of scripture must be incorporated with the living word of tradition which has the task of setting forth the full meaning of scripture this is how the church has always thought of the word of God in scripture there are two sources of revelation tradition and scripture tradition contains divine revelation and is found principally in the teachings of the fathers of the church and laid down in the decrees of the councils scripture comprises the sacred books of the old and new testament they with all their parts are inspired of God and have him for author and free from error they are confided to the church who alone has the right to normative interpretation the norm for the interpretation is tradition there is only one holy catholic and apostolic church we are compelled by faith to believe and hold and we firmly believe in her and simply confess her outside whom there is neither salvation or remission of sins and this of course serves purpose in a number of ways for roman catholic church and one thing it does of course it makes the priest indispensable because the priest is the one who administers the sacraments and roman catholics believe that you are saved by grace but the way grace is administered to you the way you receive grace is through the sacraments and there is only one entity that is authorized to provide the sacraments and that is the catholic church and the priesthood in the church which of course makes them absolutely essential by means of his church christ makes his grace available to all only in this application of redemption to mankind is the redemptive action of christ completed the doctrine of the sacraments is the doctrine of the second part of god's way of salvation to us there are seven sacraments they were instituted by christ and given to the church to administer they are necessary for salvation and here is an anathema pronounced on anyone anyone shall say that the sacraments of the new law are not necessary for salvation is anathema that means you are a curse if anyone shall say that the sacraments of the new law grace is not conferred but that faith alone and the divine promise is sufficient to obtain grace is anathema now this makes it rather clear and there are several pages here and I'm not going to go through all of them certainly not but to just give you an idea of some of the dates involved this is a

[22:24] Roman Catholic timetable prayers for the dead was instituted around 300 AD now you may search the Bible in vain and you will not find anything regarding prayers for the dead unless you happen to search the Roman Catholic Bible like the Rames Douai version which includes the Apocrypha and I'm not sure I remember reading it it's been years ago I think there is some mention in the book of Maccabees first or second Maccabees where there is a reference to prayers for the dead and that of course is where they get their authority and again the authority is the issue and we say well we do not accept the Apocrypha as being canonical they do not belong in the Bible and they would of course say yes they do you Protestants have an incomplete Bible we have the whole Bible and that contains the Apocrypha and these are the 14 books that are sandwiched in between the New

[23:27] Testament and the Old during the intertestamental period the time of the Maccabees and so on the Jews never did accept the Apocrypha as canonical and the early church never accepted them as canonical either but they became such later on to just give you an example of some of the dates here priests for instance began wearing special clothing in the year 500 AD this is a church underway 500 years and I cannot say for sure but I do have a sneaking suspicion that much of what came to be adopted as procedure and policy in the Roman Catholic Church was in at least some cases a throwback to what had taken place and what was standard and negative in Judaism and that includes the wearing of special vestments that the

[24:29] Jewish priests engaged in and the multiple cleansings that are translated as washings or baptisms in Hebrews 6 and some of the other practices were adopted and brought forward into Catholicism and when you understand that the early Roman Catholic Church as well as today the Catholic Church sees themselves as God's replacement people for the Jewish people and we have talked about replacement theology here at Grace a number of times and it is simply the idea that that it is believed that whereas as the Jewish people seed of Abraham were originally the favored people of God the chosen people of God because of their disobedience and their rejection of Christ

[25:29] God has set them aside permanently so that there is no future at all for the Jewish people and the church in their view the Roman Catholic Church has taken the place of Judaism and that the Roman Catholic Church has become the new favored people of God so they have replaced Judaism and that is not merely a Roman Catholic view but you must understand that what became the Episcopal Church or the Church of England after Henry VIII broke Rome when the Pope refused to give him an annulment from his wife he left the Church of Rome started his own church called the Church of England and he brought much of the Roman theology with him including replacement theology or supersessionism as it is sometimes called and maybe you're not aware of it but out of the

[26:43] Church of England by the way the Episcopal Church the Church of England and the Anglican Church are essentially all the same and out of that group that was founded by Henry VIII eventually came the Methodists and from the Methodists came the Churches of God the Nazarene and other like groups that we are familiar with today because as I've often said in connection with the Reformation please bear in mind that 500 years ago there were no Methodists they didn't exist there were no Presbyterians no Church of God no Nazarenes none of those they had no existence they didn't even come into being some of them didn't come into being until even the early 1900s and they are thriving denominations today so all of this is connected with this same thing that we are talking about that goes all the way back here and here are some other the

[27:50] College of Cardinals began in 927 which is of course a very powerful group and well there are so many here and I just I'm just going to skip over the rosary was adopted by Peter the hermit in 1090 the Inquisition which by the way is one of the real black marks on Roman Catholicism the Inquisition was a time of essentially persecution that that was carried on by the Roman Catholic Church and this extended clear up into well actually it went all over Europe for hundreds of years this thing went on and you've heard of the Spanish Inquisition and that too that was against the Jews but it was perpetrated officially by the Roman Catholic Church and by the way this is not an idle accusation they fully admit that they were guilty of that and they look back on it as one of the black marks auricular confession of sins to a priest instead of to

[29:03] God instituted by Pope Innocent III in the year 1215 and purgatory was proclaimed the dogma by the council of Florence in 1439 you see these councils these Roman Catholic councils that were called by the Pope were these large enclaves where cardinals and bishops from all over the world would come together for a large meeting and we've had in our own lifetime they're called ecumenical councils we've had two or three instituted by folks and these bishops and cardinals get together and they discuss any changes that need to be made or any updates or whatever and whatever verdict comes out of those councils are deemed automatically to be with the authority of God it is just as if Jesus Christ himself were issuing that result and that's the kind of authority that they assigned to it and that's why

[30:04] I say the issue is authority always has been always will be and numerous dates are listed here in in in in the year 1546 the apocryphal books that I just mentioned the 14 books were added to the Bible by the council Trent 1546 and the creed of Pope Pius IV was imposed as the official creed in place of the original apostles creed in the year 1560 and here's one that probably is a surprise even to a lot of Roman Catholics the immaculate conception of Mary was proclaimed by the Pope 1854 really not all that long ago and they saw the necessity for that because they couldn't figure out how they could possibly have a sinless savior born of a sinful woman and if it is presumed that

[31:04] Mary the mother of Jesus was the same kind of human being as the rest of us then she too was tainted with sin then how could it be that her offspring is not likewise tainted with sin so in order to get around that what they thought was the solution was to pronounce the immaculate conception of the Virgin Mary as Jesus was born without sin so was Mary apparently they did not venture to say anything about Mary's mother because where does this thing end I mean it creates a real problem you can see that but this was the best they could come up with in trying to solve this dilemma how can we have a sinless savior from a sinful woman well let's make the woman sinless and that's exactly what they did and it is just as if that pronouncement makes it so but it doesn't however and here is a really important point if you are one of the truly faithful you will believe without question that the decisions made by those church councils and by the pope when he issues his papal bowls and so on that they are the same authority as if christ himself were here on person in person and issued that order and that is what you are required to take by faith and if you are a good catholic you will now there are a lot of catholics that are not good catholics there are a lot of catholics that just you know they draw their own lines i mean they love the church and they go to mass and everything but they don't agree with all this stuff and that presents a real problem because you're supposed to if you're going to be a catholic in good standing i just wonder you know by personal testimony we've heard from too many people how many catholic women are on the pill well you're not supposed to be on that pill honey you're supposed to be producing babies and you know so what do they do they take the pill and then they go to confession and you have that all wiped out who was it somebody somebody in the president's cabinet way back when i think it was over this issue of the birth whether the government was going to be involved in providing birth control pills for the people and somebody in the president's cabinet i think it was in nixon's cabinet someone said well you know for roman catholics the pope the pope has forbidden the use of the pill or of any kind of abortifacient or contraception and what what's the government going on and he came back and he offered those immortal lines about the pope he says he no play of the game he no make of the rules and i'm sure that didn't go over very good with with the vatican but that's the way it was left so there are a lot of roman catholics who are unhappy with a lot of the rulings of the catholic church and you can understand that so this is a little bit of background and i'd like to entertain any comments or any questions that you may have so feel free to offer anything or ask anything susie in that too it says in 1950 they decided mary that ascended into the heaven father that was in 1950 that was the year of born that's why yeah you're right that's one that's one that's one that's one that i didn't read the ascension yeah the ascension of mary it was just was just proclaimed now some of you have perhaps visited ancient ephesus the sites and we had privilege of doing that several years ago magnificent just absolutely magnificent ruins this was a big city and everywhere you look was marble and stone it was just eye dropping

[35:26] I mean just jaw dropping just amazing anyway ephesus is where the apostle john was believed to have been the lead pastor there in ephesus and he was exiled from ephesus to patmos that's just a few miles off the shore of what is now turkey and there he is said to have died while in exile but while he was in ephesus and and you don't know if this is true or not because this is this too is tradition and some of the roman catholic traditions are right on in some of the things that they assert and some of them are probably you know really wrong too but anyway there in ephesus is where john lived and you remember that at the cross the care of jesus mother was transferred to john when he said to john behold your mother and to mary behold your son you know that kind of thing and john took her to himself and served as as mary's keeper and provider and there is a place there on ephesus that is reputedly the home of mary the mother of our lord and she was supposed to have died there at least that's what the tradition says and we know that john was exiled just a few miles off of that so and then as susie said and susie herself being former roman catholic was familiar with this 1950 they declared the pope declared what they called the blessed assumption of the virgin mary and that means that by papal pronouncement he decreed now it's hard to understand how this can be done in regard to something that was supposed to have happened almost 2,000 years ago but it's almost as if they are saying oh yes by the way we overlooked it but there is a blessed assumption of mary and just as jesus was taken up bodily into heaven from the mount of olives in acts chapter 1 before the disciples so also mary was assumed into heaven bodily physically the same way of course there isn't a shred of evidence in history or in the bible to vindicate that but if it is pronounced by the pope it is just the same as if it were in the bible because it comes with equal authority and you know you should know if you don't and I suspect that you already do people who submit to someone else's authority are ever at the mercy of the integrity of that person and so much of this goes on in religion and in politics where people in authority have a certain amount of power and control that enables them to dictate terms requirements etc and someone someone has said you know the most efficient type of government that can ever be realized is a benevolent dictatorship because when you have a dictatorship you have one person calling the shots and everybody has to do what that one person says and you don't have a congress to fool with you don't have to garner votes from this party or that party just issue the decree by edict and it's over and done with that's really efficient that's quick that gets the job done the problem we have is how do you keep the dictator benevolent we've never found out how to do that so someone has said power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely our own congress our own founding fathers understood the nature of humanity and it is for that very reason that they instituted the three elements of power in our government the legislative the judicial and the executive because no one branch could be trusted with all the authority because man is not trustworthy when it comes to being intoxicated with power you just cannot resist the temptation to abuse it and let me tell you this

[40:41] I've exercised myself with this thing for years and years and years there is no more ready made position for the abuse and the manipulation of people than the pulpit it scares me to death Martin Luther understood it well when he said I fear my own flesh more than the Pope and all his cardinals he had it right because there is a tendency to abuse power but it can easily be justified because I'm only doing it for your own good that's what you get out of Washington that's what you get out of a lot of pulpits

[41:42] I just don't ever want it to come from this pulpit but are we here at Grace Bible Church are we immune to that no way we are cut from the same bulk as everybody else and we have to be tracking in the word and when we stray from it we've got to check one another and say wait a minute this doesn't square with scripture we need to you know so okay that's enough now what else would you like to say anybody any other comments or questions Marvis I have a question I know in I've listened to one of your sermons before you went through some of the history and at one point there were three popes yes how did they square all that were there index laid down such and so happened such and so happened and how did they decide which pope was the right one to listen to and what have they done with all of that I do not know you'd have to research and it can be you know there is an answer to your question I don't have it but I'm sure it can be researched and there was a difficult and embarrassing time when they had three popes simultaneously and each one of the three was unwilling to retinquish his power and that continued

[42:54] I don't know if it continued until two of them died all or what I don't know how it was resolved but I do know that there is an answer to it and if you want to pursue it you can find it it's pretty well documented one of the things that maybe a very very big thing that most Protestants do not understand about Roman Catholics and that is this the Roman Catholic Church has by virtue of first of all its history and they are able to say we are the oldest and they would go so far as to say the first and the oldest recognized organized Christian church in the world and this goes back a long long ways now nobody nobody is saying that everyone back then was a member of the

[43:54] Roman Catholic Church and submitted to its authority no no no there were dozens and dozens of small groups of genuine believers who really knew the Lord and who accepted the authority of scripture and etc but they were for the most part very scattered very disorganized very small in number they did not have the organization the administration the clout that the Roman Catholic Church had and that is what helped propel it into the future was its organization and its claims and so on and when you when you look back on the history it is formidable and I think it is undeniable and like I said earlier 500 years ago all of these Protestant groups denominations they didn't even exist they didn't even exist everything not everything but most of what you would call organized

[44:55] Christianity was under the Roman Catholic Church and apart from that and I'm talking about 1200s 1300s 1400s yeah there were believers that were not a part of the Roman Catholic Church and they were scattered all over Europe and everywhere else but they were small in number small in influence and they just didn't have the wherewithal that the Catholic Church had most Protestants have no idea how powerful the Roman Catholic Church became in the early and middle ages it became so powerful that it was able to dictate policy to kings and queens and they too were members of the Roman Catholic Church and the Pope held their eternal destiny in his hands and if you cross the church we'll excommunicate you we'll cut you off from the sacraments and you are consigned to hell for eternity now if you believe that if you really believe that you're going to mind your P's and Q's when it comes to going against anything that comes out of

[46:16] Rome that's the kind of power that they demonstrate and you know I don't want to get too far afield here probably already and but when the French Revolution took place it was a nasty thing I mean it was gory and it was it was and many people are not aware that one of the main entities that the French Revolution was directed against was the clergy the church of Rome because they had installed themselves in positions of tremendous power and wealth and corruption that was deeply resented by the lay people who were kept pretty much in ignorance and for the most part you know unable to read and write and so on and they just took advantage of their position and much of the rebellion in the French Revolution was against the organized church and by the way that has followed in the train of France ever since

[47:21] France is one of the most secular countries in the whole world right up there with England and we're close to it you said the church had control over the kings you know with their edicts and stuff and if they didn't tow the line they would be cut off from the sacraments and the sacraments are the wafers that they receive each week so they don't believe in eternal security you have to get that each week to maintain right there are a number of Catholics who actually believe you Protestants talk about being saved I get saved every week and some actually believe that you get saved every week how do you get saved every week when you receive the wafer you are receiving Christ you are receiving Christ by mouth well where do you get that in scripture John chapter 6

[48:23] Jesus said except a man eat my flesh and drink my blood he has no life in him next question that's exactly how he does now we interpret that in such a way as we say well what Jesus is saying is you have to partake of my life in order to have eternal life he is saying he is the source of eternal life and when you partake of him you have his eternal life and when he held up that wafer and said this is my body which is given for you take that quite literally I remember the first time I heard that and I was in my twenties and I couldn't believe that the Catholics really believed that and I go over it again I said you mean they think that the wafer really becomes the actual body I mean it's a symbol of the body right no no it is the body it is the physical presence of Christ it's called transubstantiation and when the priest consecrates the elements that is the wine and the wafer it becomes the literal physical actual body and blood of Christ and if you say well

[49:51] I'm going to take that wine and analyze it and when you do you discover that it is wine and there are no red or white corpuscles in it and it doesn't happen and they'll say that's just because you do not believe you do not have the faith now listen the Roman Catholic Church has succeeded either by intention either deliberately or unintentionally I don't know which but they have succeeded for hundreds and hundreds of years of instilling an emotional connection and tie to the Roman Catholic Church that the Protestants have never come close to matching it is due to tradition to history and to mysticism there is a lot of mysticism in the Roman Catholic Church and this is one of the reasons why

[50:53] Roman Catholics were so very susceptible and compatible with the charismatic movement if you will remember this started I think back in the 1970s 60s 70s with an Episcopal rector by the name of Dennis Bennett in Seattle Washington and he claimed the experience of speaking in tongues and so on and he promulgated this to his congregation an Episcopal church there in Seattle and eventually it spread to other Episcopal churches and then and if you're in an Episcopal church you're just a stone's throw from Catholicism because it's the closest to it without being Roman Catholic and the Charismatics began making significant inroads into the Catholic Church and the one thing that they had in common more than anything else was the mysticism and the sheer faith principle that says no matter what it looks like no matter what you think it is this is what you believe it to be and that's the faith factor that they have instilled and you know the Roman

[52:11] Catholic Church has provided all kinds of reasons for the faithful to bail out and there are a number of course who have because they see the excesses and the inconsistencies and so on and they just weren't willing to put up with it any longer but when you look for instance at the at the terrible terrible tragedy that has taken place with pedophilia in the Roman Catholic Church and I don't know if you're aware of it or not but the church has liquidated millions and millions of dollars worth of expensive property that they have owned all throughout the world in order to pay the court judgments for the indiscretions of these priests and bishops for the molestation of children that's going on and you know something this has gone on for hundreds of years nothing new about this it's just that it came to light and the media and the press really did a job on it because much of the media much of the media is thoroughly secular and anytime they get a chance to stick it to religion of any kind they will not pass up the opportunity whether it's

[53:40] Catholic or Protestant or white because they love that and there's so much secularism in the press and for the Catholics for Roman Catholics to be willing to hang in there and stay loyal to their church when all of these indiscretions are surfaced and all of these nasty embarrassing charges are made in Europe and here it just goes to show you that what they are saying is yes the church is made up of flawed individuals but forgiveness is still available and the church is still the church and I am not going to waver in my allegiance or loyalty to it even though I do not approve of all of that and that's the position that a lot of Catholics have taken because of the emotional detachment that they've been able to instill in the Catholic people and not only that but their view is if if you do leave the

[54:42] Catholic church you have cut yourself off from the possibility of heaven and you have made your bed in hell and they really believe that and that's that's an enormous hook to have in people and that's exactly where a lot of them are so Mike does the weekly mass always include communion as far as I know it does I don't know that for sure but it does and they have a daily mass it isn't just weekly but it's daily and there are there are a number of loyal Roman Catholics men and women who go to mass every morning I mean every morning they're there and and so and what they're doing you see what they are doing is they are increasing their works because they equate your participation with the sacraments as good works and you are building up a bank of good works that will stand you in good stead and will offset your sins when you go to purgatory and that consequently will lessen the amount of time that you have to spend in purgatory by partaking of these elements on a daily basis now there are a lot of

[56:19] Catholics they just don't buy that and they are not going to mass every morning no matter what they just don't take it that seriously but there are those who do and I say that to say you know what that's true in every group we've got a lot of people who embrace Christianity they call themselves Protestants they may be a member of the church and they don't take their faith all that seriously you know it's just like an add-on and Islam has the same thing Mormons have the same thing everybody has the same thing you have those who are intensely loyal and faithful you have those who are ho-hum you have those who are the Sioneers we call them Christian and Easter Christmas and Easter and they don't take their faith seriously at all so that's true of every group Mary sure absolutely if you believe there is if you believe that you are destined for hell if you don't do that you better believe that's a wake-up call if you take it seriously absolutely and there are some who take it a lot more seriously than others the conscientious take it seriously the others take it any other way yeah

[57:57] Mark Lowry who travels with the Gaithers you know songwriter comedian he said one of the first people he wants to talk to when he gets to heaven is Mary he said because us Baptists aren't allowed to talk to her now they're not allowed to talk to her now yeah Susie the Catholics they do talk to her so yeah it's the idolatry of Mary that's just it's overwhelming in the Catholic Church and I think you know everything you read about Mary in the Bible she would not want this adoration that they give her no but she's still needed to Christ yeah and no one made more no one made more of Mary than Pope John Paul II I mean he really elevated her you know even above where she was and yet at the same time you know credit needs to be given where credit is due I don't think there is any denying that it was a combination of

[59:00] Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher and John Paul II that trio was more responsible for the dissembling of the old Soviet Union than any other entity and the breaking down of that Berlin Wall and the influence that the Pope had in Poland was really significant and that really started the whole thing and the Soviet Union just kind of crumbled because right after World War II you'll recall well some of you can recall the Soviet Union just gobbled up all of these satellites around them and just pulled them in to make up the Soviet Union and that trio that trio of Reagan and Thatcher and Pope

[60:01] John Paul II they effectively contributed to the dissembling of that the breaking up the old Soviet Union and the freeing of all those satellite countries is very significant so there is an enormous amount of power to be wielded from the Vatican there's no question about it no question about it other comments yes Erwin Lutzer has a good yeah well yeah I consider Erwin Lutzer one of the one of the prime authorities on the subject today he's made several trips over there to to Wittenberg and the famous door where the thesis was packed and so on so Erwin Lutzer is one of the better things on radio now he and David Jeremiah yes listening to what you've been saying today and thinking about not just Catholics but some of the other denominations it's all based on fear oh yeah a lot of it is fear a lot of it and scripture is not based on fear at all you're right you're absolutely right and and it's hard too even when you come from a background probably Catholic

[61:18] I came from a Methodist background it's hard not to get away from that what if I don't what if God gets mad at me you know that's it's so hard as a human being to get away yeah yeah of course it is fear fear can envelop a person who is conscientious now if you're not conscientious and you live a reckless life oh the hell with it you know that's the attitude a lot of people a lot of people feel that they had no there's nothing conscientious about them you know and I'll take my chances that kind of thing there's a lot of people like that but but the fear factor is tremendous and and for this for this reason there is no security in Roman Catholicism there is no eternal security there is no real peace there is no real stability because you never know whether you've done enough whether you've given enough whether you've been this enough or that enough or attend enough mass or whatever and how long are you going to have to spend in purgatory and all of these these things will weigh down the heart and mind of a conscientious person and and it can be it can be destructive it can be emotionally psychologically destructive because there is no peace and how can there possibly be any lasting joy

[62:52] I am convinced I am convinced that one of the principal things that God wants us to do with our salvation is to enjoy it nobody ought to get a bang out of living like a Christian nobody should enjoy life more than a Christian and some say well what about Roman Catholics they're Christians too aren't they well some of them are there are people in the Roman Catholic Church who are at Mass every Sunday morning who are genuine believers in the Lord Jesus Christ and there are people in Protestant churches every Sunday morning who don't even know the Lord they're just into churchianity the only reason they go is because they like the people or they like the decor or they like the connections or it makes them feel good to go but there's no real heart change there there's no real regeneration there so there are there are genuine believers in the

[63:59] Catholic Church and yet there is that emotional hook that is in them that holds them fast to that and will not let go and it's a difficult thing for them to make that break because let's face it we tend to respond a whole lot more to what we feel as opposed to what we know the feelings will dominate the intellect almost every time and it shouldn't be that way it should be the intellect the reason and the mind that is guiding the ship not the emotions but for most people it is not so most people will go with their gut with their feelings as opposed to what they know and they're counting on that someone else John didn't the printing press come about about the same time as the reformation and it got that yeah yeah yeah and that's that's a that's another story in itself

[65:11] Johannes Gutenberg and that was in the 1500s with the invention of the printing press that was some say the atomic bomb was the greatest invention the world's ever seen but I think it was the printing press that resulted in an explosion of knowledge and that's what brought us out of the dark ages really was that was the printing press other comments that Marvis one other thing made me think from kind of what you said too is that you know the just just shall live by faith and you just need to believe and then you commented about the there are saved people in catholic church and unsaved in the protestant church and it's until you explained way back when the three levels of belief because for me it's even somewhat worrisome with your own family and when you explain about the lord and and give the plan of salvation they go yeah I believe that and then it's just like oh yeah

[66:13] I've heard that so okay that applies to me so now I'll just go do whatever I want to do and they don't put any more thought so it's that whole emotional thing versus think it through what's real so to me that's the hardest thing when you're trying to speak to people about belief yeah I hear you and I agree and I've gone over on my time you've gone over on your time but I do appreciate it and I've taken most of it sorry to say but I just want to just want to close with this comment two things one is are Roman Catholics then a legitimate mission field for evangelism absolutely and Protestants are a legitimate field mission field for evangelism also because there are plenty of both in both groups

[67:17] Protestant and Catholic who really do not have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and these people whether they're Catholics or Protestants they are not the enemy they are the captives of the enemy and we need to ever keep that in mind so they are a legitimate a legitimate mission field and a cause for evangelism anybody is who doesn't know the Lord whether they're Catholic Protestant Muslim Hindu you name it if they don't have a personal relationship to Jesus Christ they are our mission field doesn't make any difference anything else before we conclude on the lighter side yes yeah this little magazine thank you for mentioning that I distributed some of them they're extras if you want one they're on the bulletin board shelf out there this is a project that was begun by yeah by Carolyn

[68:19] Hayes and she is the wife of Pat Hayes who's one of our regulars at Thursday morning men's class and this is kind of like a pet project of hers that she began this is just the second issue of it and I've got an article in there last last one I did was the hard part of the gospel and this is the easy part of the gospel and it's a very well done publication and sell some advertising so feel free to pick up one look through the table with you and I think you'll enjoy the articles that are in it on the lighter side I'll close with this this Roman Catholic nun driving down the highway and of course she was wearing all of her garb and everything and all of a sudden she realized that she'd run out of gas and a car pulled over the side and she's sitting there and doesn't know what to do and she looks up ahead and about a quarter of a mile ahead she sees a sign of a gas station so she opens a trunk of the car and tries to find something to get some gas in but she doesn't have an empty can or anything like that and in the back seat of the car was a bed pan because she works as a nurse in one of the hospitals and she had a bed pan in the back seat she thought well time for a little resourcefulness so she walks all the way down to the gas station and guy comes out and says can I help you and she's standing there with this bed pan she said would you be so kind as to fill this with gas

[70:07] I said well okay so he filled it with gas and she carefully teeters back to the car with it meanwhile a couple of 18 wheeler truck drivers come by and they see this car stranded there and here comes this nun walking down the road carrying this bed pan and they think well here's an opportunity for us to be on an errand of mercy and we'll see if we can help this poor sister and they start pulling up behind the car and she walks up to the car and opens the gas cap and starts pouring in the contents of this bed pan and this one truck driver turned to the other and says now if that car starts I'm going to become a Catholic who said the day of miracles all right thank you for your kind attention for� once she hopefully it happened to become aerc that is