Membership Class One

[0:00] Well, good morning, you all. Beautiful, beautiful day. Thank you for coming and sharing your morning with us. The class this morning is going to be considerably different from what we've been doing in the past, and I'll explain why just as soon as we have a word of prayer together.

[0:18] We're grateful, Father, for the beauty of this day that you've given us, for the presence of each one here, and especially for your presence. We do not understand how you are able to gather with groups like ours all across the world, but that's part of what makes you who you are, and we are delighted and glad that you are the God that you are.

[0:36] We ask that as we undertake this important content this morning, you will allow us to see it with clarity and the importance of it. Thank you again for the day and all that it holds in Christ's name. Amen.

[0:50] Originally, we had scheduled this Sunday to be a membership information class, and we had already invited some folks who said that they were interested in considering the possibilities of being a member at Grace Bible Church, and we had scheduled today to be the first session.

[1:10] There will be two. It will be this Sunday and next. And then I got to thinking. Actually, we have been in existence now for 50 years, and the only time we have spent any significant time at all in this content regarding our Constitution and the membership was when people applied for membership at Grace, and we went through this material with them privately.

[1:36] But it seems to me that after 50 years, we're due for a refresher, and that's what we're going to do this morning. So with the copy of your Constitution before you, and if anyone doesn't have one, I've got some extras here.

[1:50] Someone who came in late might not have gotten one. John, would you see if folks get one of these, if you would, please? And this particular session is going to deal primarily with the doctrine of the issue, and we will be considering what is involved and how we arrived at the positions that we did regarding this kind of subject matter.

[2:18] And I do have one more. Somebody needs it? Okay. I thought we had enough copies. And by the way, we're really pleased that you all turned out this morning and things are easing a little bit regarding this pandemic.

[2:36] So thank you for coming and sharing your morning with us. But as you can see, we're about as spread out as we can be, and the seating is somewhat limited because of the spread out nature of it.

[2:47] Everything is so far apart. But I think probably next week that will be changing, and we'll be back to our regular seating here in the rear as well as in the front.

[2:59] And as I was saying, in 1971, when Grace Bible Church began, one of the first responsibilities that we had upon our organizing was to arrive at our doctrinal position.

[3:15] What is it that will constitute the doctrinal distinctives of Grace Bible Church and in some ways will make us in step with other congregations in the area, and in some ways would make us differ from other congregations in the area.

[3:33] So a great deal of time was spent by this, by the elders at that time. Actually, they weren't even elders. They were considered the steering committee. And I was one of the five members of that steering committee that consisted of Marie's first husband, Dave Weinbrenner, and Paul Pontus, and Bob Holdsworth, and Jim McGinnis, and myself.

[3:59] And those are all gone now except myself and Marie. That's because we are so young. Yeah, right. So we spent many, many hours laboring over the scriptures to arrive at the positions that we did.

[4:16] Then we presented them to the newly formed congregation for their adoption. And after considerable discussion and some tweaking here and there, we arrived at what we did in 1971, as indicated on the front page of your Constitution.

[4:33] And then we noted as time went by that there were some things we overlooked that needed to be added, that needed to be changed. So in 1989, the Constitution was revised into the form that you now have it.

[4:49] And it has been our custom in the past, when someone applies for membership at Grace, that we go through the Constitution, explaining our doctrinal position, giving them opportunity to ask any questions they may have.

[5:05] And then as well, to follow that up for the next session with a consideration of the bylaws, which is what we are going to be doing in our next week together.

[5:16] So if you will take your Constitution and look at it, as you open it to page one, I think you can see the articles that are listed there pretty much in logical order.

[5:29] And the first has to do with the name of the church, which shall be Grace Bible Church. And that was not easily arrived at, because in this newly found congregation, which didn't have a name yet, we polled the people and asked for their suggestions as to what this new church should be called.

[5:52] And we probably had 10 or 12 different suggestions as to the name for the church. Got to keep in mind, this was in 1971. And we had a lengthy discussion about that and pros and cons.

[6:06] And over a period of time, we were able to eliminate most of them and we came down to the final two or three. And then the congregation voted on those. And what we arrived at was Grace Bible Church.

[6:20] And the reason we did, the rationale for it, was we wanted to be a church that would emphasize the grace of God, the gospel of the grace of God, as opposed to so much of the do-goodism that is pervasive in our communities all throughout the country.

[6:41] We wanted to put an emphasis upon the magnificent reality of the grace of God. And then we wanted to make it quite clear what the basis for our selection was and the basis for our teaching, what it would be.

[6:58] And the name Bible came up and it was just kind of automatic. So we became Grace Bible Church in 1971.

[7:09] We filed for articles of incorporation with the state of Ohio under that name, listing our officers and so on. And we received authorization from them in return to be established as a nonprofit religious organization in the state of Ohio.

[7:29] Then the next thing we had to deal with was the membership issue because we were contemplating purchasing land.

[7:40] We wanted to build somewhere. We were meeting at the time at Roosevelt Junior High School, which now doesn't even exist, been torn down, on North Limestone Street. We met there for about two years in the auditorium.

[7:54] And we were eager to find a location of our own. And we examined a couple of different existing churches with the possibility of buying them.

[8:05] They were on the market at the time. And we gave serious consideration to two or three different possibilities. We looked at probably four or five different locations, building lots throughout Clark County, many of, some of them far removed from where we are now.

[8:22] Some of them were way out east. And finally, when we became aware that this property was available, we became very interested in it. But then the question was, if we purchase property, you have to have a deed.

[8:40] And there has to be a name on the deed. Well, that was not a problem. The name on the deed would be Grace Bible Church. But there is no such person by that name.

[8:51] So, what are you going to do by way of ownership? Who or what is Grace Bible Church? Well, that required definition.

[9:03] Did it happen to be just anybody that wandered in on a Sunday morning, their Grace Bible Church? Or should we have some distinctive, some peculiarities that make us what we are?

[9:14] And that's how and why we arrived at the concept of church membership. Be advised, there is nothing in the scriptures, we have no biblical mandate at all for having an official church membership like we have here.

[9:32] We do have one because the state of Ohio necessitates it if you're going to enter into legal proceedings and purchase land, you've got to have an identity on the deed.

[9:43] So then the question becomes, who is Grace Bible? So that's why we arrived at a membership. We have a membership, an official membership at Grace Bible Church, not because it's necessarily biblical, not because the scriptures require it, but because Caesar requires it.

[10:02] It's the law of the land that you've got to have some identity. So that's how and why we came up with a membership. And that's also why, by the way, we do not aggressively push the idea of membership.

[10:17] membership. We make it available to people. We encourage it because I am confident that being an official member puts you in a position where you sustain some responsibility for what happens here and for the direction that this church takes.

[10:39] So a congregational-type government was established, and that means that each person gets one vote and it is congregational rule and we have limitations that will be described in our bylaws that we'll consider next week that require congregational approval, et cetera.

[10:57] And when you're going to call a new pastor or elect a new elder or something like that, it is done by the congregation and people vote on that and everybody has a say.

[11:08] You're welcome to attend here and not be a member. Many people do, but then you are exempt from any decisions or any official functions.

[11:19] And another reason we have membership is because each person who is a member of grace is a potential teacher. Most will not function in that role, but some do.

[11:33] And we require that the teacher, whoever is teaching whatever class, they will be teaching the same doctrine that is being taught at the pulpit because you cannot have a church where Sunday school is teaching one thing and Sunday morning worship and the pulpit is teaching something different.

[11:56] That's complete confusion. So in order for one to be a teacher in any capacity, they need to be a member and that kind of solidifies the parameters of their teaching and kind of locks them in with the pulpit and whatever is being taught there.

[12:13] So some of these things, most of them just came about as out of a necessity and that's why we have a membership like we do and that's also why we don't push it. But we do want to make it available because I think, this is a Wiseman opinion, I think there is more a sense of belonging and a feeling of being involved and being responsible as a member having some official say in the direction of the church and it just kind of provides an emotional, psychological cement that just kind of bonds people together and it makes you more or feel like you're more of the group.

[12:53] But at the same time, like I said, we don't really push it or promote it and we want people who are not members for whatever reason to feel completely comfortable being here.

[13:04] We don't treat them differently than we do members except when it comes time for a business meeting and then the only difference is, and by the way, any non-member is more than welcome at any of the business meetings and they're more than welcome to offer any suggestions or questions or whatever, but when it comes time to vote, they do not vote simply because they are not members.

[13:27] So let's look at this if we may and I will be as brief as I can without too much elaboration because I'd like to have a little Q&A at the end and we will go through these in one session.

[13:38] I'm not going to spend much time on it because you already have a copy of this. You probably have one at home and you can refer to it at your leisure and if you have questions, you can feel free to ask them and we'll do our best to answer them while we are here or you can approach me privately or you may talk to any of the elders about any questions that are here.

[14:02] So we've already dealt with the name. Look at Article 2 if you would please. The purpose of Grace Bible Church shall be the teaching of the Word of God, the organized worship and fellowship of believers knit together in the love of Christ and one another, the growth and spiritual development of its members, bearing witness to the Lord Jesus Christ in our own community and the spread of the gospel of the grace of God in all the earth.

[14:31] So these articles that are enumerated in this brief pamphlet were the result of many, many hours of labor and sweat and toil by that steering committee in order to present this to the congregation and that's been hard as it is to believe.

[14:50] That's been a little over 50 years ago that we did that. The first item, of course, or Article 3 begins with the Holy Scriptures and I'm not going to elaborate on these or read them pervatum because you can see them here.

[15:03] I just want to give them a lick and a promise as we go through. You can read that at your leisure later on but I want to confine our time to trying to get through this and still allow some time for Q&A.

[15:17] It's become very obvious, I think, for anybody who is attending here that we do place a great deal of emphasis upon the Bible because we are convinced without apology that the issue is authority.

[15:33] Always has been, always will be. What is your issue? What is your position? What is your source of authority for what you believe about anything?

[15:46] What is your ultimate authority? And that comes down to the Scriptures and that's why we focus upon that because we simply believe that the Bible represents God's viewpoint on everything that He wants us to know.

[16:02] The Bible certainly does not reveal everything about God. That's impossible. But it reveals what about God He wants us to know, what He has chosen to reveal, He has incorporated in His Word and that's why we focus upon it and pay so much attention to it because it becomes our authority.

[16:24] The moment you make man your authority, then the question becomes, what man? And why? That man as opposed to other men. So, without apology, we settled on the Holy Scriptures and the inspiration of the Bible and you will note the way that it is broken down here in His revealed truths and the various administrations and so on.

[16:46] Item number two on page two deals with the triune God. It is a concept that none of us really understand, but all of us who are at least official members of Grace Bible Church have signed on to.

[17:02] We do not claim to have plumbed the depths of the nature and being and character of God. All we know is there is but one God and Scripture makes that quite clear in the Hebrew Shema of Deuteronomy 6.4, Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord.

[17:21] At the same time, make no question about it, Jesus Christ the Son is referred to as God and the Holy Spirit is referred to as God and there are attendant Scriptures that reveal that in the text that you have and these three persons constitute the one God.

[17:44] They are not one third God each. Each is fully God, but there is but one God. Some sense, well, one plus one plus one, equals three.

[17:57] That's true. But one times one times one equals one. And that's the formula that we go with. So without apology, we admit our incapability of really understanding the character, the exact precise makeup of the Trinity, of the triune God.

[18:18] And for those who would object by saying, you don't even find the word Trinity in the Bible once. It's not even in the Bible. That's true. And the word Bible isn't in the Bible either. So what does that prove?

[18:29] It doesn't really prove anything. But let's move on. God the Father, the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, the third member. And by the way, when you refer to them that way, that implies secession.

[18:43] it implies rank, it implies rank, first, second, and third. But there is no other way to express it. If you want to speak of all three, you cannot speak of all three in one position.

[18:56] So, we just have to say, you know, there are many things about the deity that are limited because of our humanity. And that's all we can say.

[19:08] And we just have to leave it there. So, the existence of Satan is very important and very real. Our Lord Jesus referred to him in John 12, 14, and 16.

[19:19] And he called him the prince of this world. And the apostle Paul referred to him as the god of this age in 2 Corinthians 4.

[19:30] We believe that he is not only very real, he is very active. We do not understand all of his vaccinations, but we know that we know that in our personhood and our humanity, we are no match for Satan at all, either in intelligence or in power.

[19:50] But Christ is the match for him. And he allows Satan his rule and his reign on this earth to the extent that he is willing. And I have often described Satan like a mad dog on a chain and he can go no further than what God is willing to allow him to go.

[20:07] But he does have great latitude. There is a tremendous amount of evil that has inundated our planet since Genesis chapter 3.

[20:19] It has proliferated and as time goes on, it is going to increase in intensity and severity and will eventually be wrapped up in what is called the Great Tribulation period.

[20:32] So the existence of Satan is very, very real and I am persuaded that one of his greatest tools is the fact that he has convinced huge numbers of people that he doesn't even exist, that he's just a mythological character.

[20:49] So nobody is going to be on guard against something like that. All men by nature and choice are sinful and lost and that too is a very predominant doctrine and it is the reason that we have a gospel because men are lost and the gospel is the means that God has provided for salvation which brings up item 5 in salvation by grace through faith.

[21:17] this too is a very peculiar doctrine in many circles because it requires definition and as some define it it means something completely different from what we are saying.

[21:35] When we say justification by faith and faith alone that simply means that an individual becomes righteous before God solely on the basis of that individual's belief, commitment to or trust in what someone else did for them on their behalf and that someone else is Jesus Christ.

[22:01] We view him as our substitute and he becomes the basis for God's grace getting to us and the statement has been made the question has been made isn't God forgiving?

[22:14] Doesn't God love to forgive? Yes he does and he is forgiving but what makes it possible for God to forgive is because your sin debt and penalty has been paid by Jesus Christ and forgiveness is available to you because someone else paid the price and that's the whole essence of salvation by grace through faith.

[22:42] There are those who believe that yes you are saved by grace but grace is administered through communion through baptism through the teachings of the church etc.

[22:56] etc. So that's a completely different thing altogether and as you probably know from history and reading that Martin Luther had a great conflict with the church of Rome over this very issue and the issue is how is the grace of God appropriated.

[23:14] Our position and we believe the scriptures set forth this very clearly that salvation is appropriated on the basis of faith and faith is belief and faith is the pipeline it is the pipeline for how God's grace gets to you his grace is available how do we get grace from God to the individual it is presented to the individual and the individual responds to the presentation of grace with belief or with trust or with commitment or whatever you want to call it and that is justification by faith or justification by believing which means there are no religious hoops to jump through not baptism not communion none of those things it is salvation by grace through faith alone and that word alone was the big item that has touched off a lot of fireworks but we are convinced that the scriptures teach it very very clearly and even though we are not saved by our works we are saved by in item 6 we are saved in order to then be in an acceptable position with God so that we can perform good works that God will recognize and accept and acknowledge otherwise we are working from the flesh as opposed to the spirit so Ephesians 2 makes it very clear that we are not saved by our works we are saved unto good works so the good works are the result of our salvation in the same way that fruit is the result of the tree not vice versa so I think this is pretty much self-explanatory as well item 6 you'll have time for questions if I hurry on through this the body of Christ is the one true church and this body is comprised of all believers of all languages of all ethnic backgrounds wherever and whoever they may be if they have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ they are automatically in the church which is the body of Christ that's the spiritual body of Christ and Christ is the spiritual head of that so each one is a member of that true church so in a sense it is very true to say you have to be a church member in order to go to heaven but the church of which you have to be a member is that which is described in Ephesians and Colossians well it's described in all the Paul's epistles you have to be a member of that church of which Christ is the head and you become a member of that church by exercising your personal faith and trust in Jesus Christ not on the basis of what you give not on the basis of how good you are not on the basis of how deserving you are not on the basis of your potential and what you may be able to contribute but solely on the basis of believing on Jesus Christ as your Savior that is the gospel and the fact that it is reduced to that that simple thing that's why it's called good news that's why it is the gospel you don't have to do this and then do that and promise this and promise that and give this and attend that buy this and all the rest of it there are no hoops to jump through

[26:47] Jesus already jumped through the only hoop that was necessary and it was a cross don't ever forget that the spiritual non-water baptism of believers into the body of Christ and this is probably the most distinguishing thing that separates us from most other churches we are persuaded and after 50 years I'm more persuaded of it than I have ever been that water baptism is a carryover from Judaism in the same way that circumcision is a carryover from Judaism but our circumcision is spiritual Colossians makes it clear that we are spiritually circumcised and by the way ladies this applies to you too I don't know how that works but you can just be thankful that it's spiritual and it is a spiritual circumcision and it is a spirit baptism so by one spirit are we all baptized into one body whether we be

[27:47] Jew, Gentile, bond or free male or female have all been made to drink of one spirit and our water baptism friends of which there are many are persuaded that well you can't be a church if you don't baptize and they sprinkle and they pour and they immerse and none of them accepts the other's baptism as being valid and the point has been made it doesn't make any difference what position you take on water baptism you're in a minority and all of Christendom sees this but really and I trust that you've come to see it too after being a grace I know some of you here have been with us from the beginning I mean you've been with us for the whole 50 years and you've seen how this thing has developed down through the years the headship and lordship of Jesus Christ is axiomatic and it's it really needs no explanation he's the only one who is the head entitled to be and in reality is the security of the believer is a big item as well we are convinced that there is no peace there is no stability and there is no security for anybody who doesn't know where they're going when they die and you are going to die unless Christ comes first we are all going to die and what is it that you are trusting in once again this comes back to the works issue we are trusting in Jesus Christ and him alone and he is our security he's not only our security blanket he's our security for everything he's our guarantee of eternal life and we did not we did not come to Christ and receive his salvation to be put on probation and God hasn't said now I'm saving you but you better live up to thus and so or thus and so just as I took you in so I can kick you out and there is no concern for that for the believer who was in Christ because you were bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh spiritually and Jesus Christ has more invested in you than you could ever imagine and I can assure you he will protect his investment ministry and commission of the church is quite obvious this is one reason why we've placed a great deal of emphasis on mission and mission endeavors as we have and the last time

[30:19] I looked at our budget last year our church treasurer told me that approximately 20 25 to 30% or maybe it was even a third I'm not sure but 25 to 30% of our entire budget is for some type of missions most churches that I've had any association with in the past strive to have a 10% item for missions and we've surpassed that a long time ago because missions is what missions is our secondary calling our first calling is to educate believers is to build up the body of Christ and Paul makes that quite clear in Ephesians that ministers were given to the church to build up the body for the work of ministry ministry so who's to do the work of ministry you are you are my job is to equip you and train you and get you qualified to go out there and represent

[31:29] Christ where you are in the neighborhood in the school in the workplace wherever and to make yourself spiritually attractive to others and you do that on the basis of growing spiritually and maturing and developing because our goal is and always ought to be to be conformed to the image of Christ now I have no illusions of arriving there I've been on this thing called Christianity now for 65 years and I still haven't had anyone mistake me for Jesus so I haven't arrived or even come close but you know we're growing we're all in development we're all in progress we're all spiritual growth is spiritual growth is simply becoming more and more like Jesus Christ and less and less like the flesh in which we live that's what spiritual growth is all about and people can see that difference in us so that's our objective and we try to support those who will go out into the highways and byways and propagate that message importance of the local church

[32:39] I think has already been covered by at least implication our independence and autonomy we do not belong to any other religious organization other than the Berean Bible Society to which we contribute a membership fee of five dollars a year and that's it and that's strictly voluntary so that means that we do not have a hierarchy we do not have a headquarters that we receive information from you know some churches some denominational churches the pastor gets his sermon in the mail every week and he just stands in the pulpit and reads the sermon from the headquarters and they justify that by having everybody on the same page and I suppose it works for them at least they think it does but that's not the way we've chosen to go so separation of churches somebody said you don't belong to any other denomination in the group I said frankly we have never found another group that would have us nor are we looking but we do have a friendly relationship with other churches in the area and sometimes it hasn't happened for quite a while now but a few years back I would get together with a half dozen other pastors in the area just for a time of fellowship and encouragement and we had some great times together and then half of them died and the other half moved someplace else and the thing just came apart and actually Jim

[34:12] Welch is about the only one in the area besides myself that's still functioning in the area and he's out in Northampton and I haven't seen him for quite some in fact I haven't seen Jim since he married us I don't think and that was a quickie ceremony but that's another story anyway okay let's move right along separation of church and state independence autonomy item 13 and 14 I think it's pretty much self-explanatory the Lord's supper or communion this too is something that we do not see as a sacrament and the Bible doesn't even refer to it as an ordinance you know most churches and the Baptist church from which I came originally the only church that I had been a member of believes that there are two ordinances baptism and the Lord's supper and that's pretty standard fare but you will search the scriptures high and low to find them described like that there isn't any place in the

[35:15] Bible that describes those as ordinances we believe and I've already made clear the water baptism thing but would be happy to talk to anybody about it but communion is what it says on the front of the communion table we partake in remembrance of Christ and it is simply a physical visible reminder of the body and blood of Christ that was given on our behalf there is nothing spiritually magical in the elements they do not become anything the grape juice still is grape juice and the wafer is still a wafer and it isn't mysteriously transferred into something else it is what it appears to be what it tastes like what it looks like that's what it is but it is physical and we partake simply as is a I would call it a it is a meager it is a meager representation of the body and blood of

[36:23] Christ and it's just designed to remind us that our Lord had a physical body that underwent incredible pain and he had physical blood coursing through his veins which he shed on our behalf and these are simply reminders of that the rapture of the church is another minority position that is held by most Bible believing churches by most Baptist churches although there are several distinctions between them but we are of the opinion that 1 Corinthians 15 and Thessalonians 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 set forth the principle of the catching away of the body of Christ we have no idea when that's going to happen but it could happen before I finish the next sentence it is imminent it could take place at any time when Christ removes us in accordance with his will and his strategy and when that happens then of course that will be climactic for the whole globe and I've got some theories about that but

[37:30] I can't validate them the tribulation period follows that it doesn't follow immediately but it does follow the rapture of the church and Christ's second coming to the earth which is very physical and visible when Christ comes for the rapture he does not come to the earth he comes in the air in a cloud and we will be caught up from the earth to meet him in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord those are some of the most priceless words in the Bible and so shall we ever be with the Lord and we are removed from the planet and taken into his presence and that's the rapture he comes above the earth but in the second coming he comes to the earth and his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives the place from which he ascended and these are very important distinctions and this by the way is the principal thing we're considering in our monthly sessions that are now meeting the last Thursday of each month and we'll have another for the month of May future life bodily resurrection I think item 19 is very clear

[38:49] I think is probably needs no elaboration but it is it is very important and it is very important to note that when Christ rose from the tomb it was with a physical body it wasn't some kind of ghost or apparition it was his physical body that was raised from the dead and the scriptures tell us that our body is going to be fashioned like unto his body and that means we get to trade in these worn out used things for a brand new apparatus and it's going to be an enormous improvement I'm looking forward to getting rid of my glasses getting rid of my hearing aids which half the time I forgot I forgot them again this morning I'm going to get hair I'm going to get just all kinds of things going to be wonderful wonderful and our other items here regarding others the Old Testament tribulation saints manifestation of the sign gifts we see those as principal principal ingredients for the kingdom message and the kingdom message has to do with things physical and it's a physical earth for physical Israel and that's where the emphasis was Jesus

[40:03] Jesus found it necessary to provide kingdom conditions wherever he went and he did that through the miracles because a miracle is in fact a violation of the standard norm it just is it is a contrary to the way things work that's why it's called a miracle it is not natural it is supernatural and these miracles that Christ performed were essential and the miracles that the apostles performed that he gave authority to perform were likewise essential so long as that kingdom concept was in vogue and as long as that remained a viable possibility the miracles were there to substantiated but they have ceased they have passed off the scene that doesn't mean that God never performs miracles anymore God can do anything he wants anytime he wants any miracle he wants for anyone he wants he is completely sovereign but what we are saying is and this is important that the manifestation of the supernatural was the order of the day during that kingdom message time it was the what shall I say it was the it was the method of operation it was the standard fair the miracles but that it is not the standard fair it is not the basis of operation under what we know as the grace administration for we walk by sight not by faith and that simply means we are not the miracles are not the order of the day here in Christ's ministry in the kingdom message that was the modus operandi that was the norm was the miraculous and it was for the apostles but it isn't for us now the order of the day is we believe by faith we walk by faith not by sight they walk by sight because miracles are something you can see you could seeing is believing can you believe without seeing absolutely and that was what this conversation with Thomas was all about when he doubted the resurrection of the Lord and

[42:32] Jesus said when Thomas saw him in the flesh Jesus said handle me and see a spirit does not have flesh and bones like you see me have and Thomas said bowed before him and said my Lord and my God and then very significantly Jesus said Thomas because you have seen me you have believed he refused to believe otherwise you know maybe the others would have refused to believe otherwise also but they saw him but Thomas wasn't there and then Jesus said to him later Thomas because you have seen me you have believed blessed are they who having not seen shall believe and that's you that's me and that's millions of believers who have lived since that time when Christ returned to heaven so the manifestation of the sign gifts we we have love and affection for our charismatic brethren who insist on the speaking in tongues and and physical miracles etc but we are simply persuaded that they are misled in this that it is not a valid thing for this dispensation that does not affect anybody's salvation because if you've placed your faith and trust in Jesus Christ you're going to be in heaven and the charismatics are going to be in heaven and the

[44:05] Presbyterians are going to be in heaven and the Catholics who believe are going to be in heaven and everybody's going to be in heaven and there's going to be a huge straightening out and everybody's going to get their act together everybody's going to get straight and but until then we all have flaws in our theology none of us has it all together and if you ever encounter a man or a woman who tells you that absolutely every point of doctrine they have is solid and is true and they are convinced of it and they know they have all the truth you need to flee from that person as quickly as you can because they're not worth listening to okay well I left you a little bit of time not much but have you a comment or question in connection with this we've went through this very very quickly next week we'll take up the bylaws and this will be a refresher again for you all Marvis I just learned yesterday that some churches teach that Jewish people do not need to be saved because they are already special people to God I have not heard that before yeah well there are actually some Jews who believe that Marvis's question is that she has heard recently that that

[45:22] Jewish people simply because they are Jews are already in favor with God and they do not need what we call salvation because they are already the chosen people and there is no question that they are the chosen people as a race of people they are descendants of Abraham Isaac and Jacob yet salvation for them is the same as it is for us it is an individual thing and the time is coming when Israel is going to be subjected to a time of intense persecution many are going to be martyred and many are going to be executed as a result of the Antichrist and many Gentiles will be as well but there will be an element that is referred to in Scripture as the remnant the remnant and the remnant literally means the leftovers the ones who survive there will be a surviving remnant of Jews and I can't go into the eschatology of that now because time won't permit but they will become believers and they will be the ones of whom Zechariah is speaking in chapter 14 that when Christ returns they will mourn for him and they will look upon him whom they pierced and their ancestors pierced and they will mourn there will be a huge Jewish revival in that last day and those are the people who will be entering into the kingdom as well and they will be Jews and they will be of course there will be Jews a much smaller number but far greater number it's going to be Gentiles but they will have special assignments in the kingdom period just like Jesus talked about to the 12 that they will sit on the 12 thrones of Israel judging the 12 tribes and so on so salvation is not automatic for a Jew just because he is a Jew that's definite that's that's scriptures make that quite clear Joe don't some of the

[47:26] Baptist churches treat baptism similar to we do with the communion table it's mainly a physical thing to demonstrate what is just occurred to them their faith in Jesus Christ and that really even a lot of Baptist churches would not even require you if you don't want to be baptized dunk you don't have to we'll we'll let you go but you don't have to to become a member of that church and they accept you as a believer even though you do not go through the baptism okay process I I have never heard that regarding a Baptist church most a lot of Baptist churches that I have been familiar with in the past not only require that you have been immersed in water but do you have been immersed in their church baptistry never mind that you were already immersed in another church that would not count with them you have to be immersed in their local church and and and Baptist well really look Baptist like Methodist and Presbyterians they're all over the map on this I don't know how many different kinds of Baptists there are and there are a lot of different

[48:46] Presbyterians there are a lot of different Methodists and and these differences came about because they had differences in their doctrine and they separated on that basis and started another group and that's been going on for 500 years so they're all over the map on that and I know I've never I've never been associated with a Baptist pastor or a Baptist church that believed you have to be water baptized in order to be saved now that's called baptismal regeneration and there are denominations that adhere to that and believe that but I've never met a Baptist that did they said no that there they practice water baptism is an act of obedience that they believed and were baptized and the scripture set that forth but that's a whole different subject and I can't go into that now Dave the Apostle Paul I guess basically walked away from that or denounced that anyway yeah yeah he he really he really did and and that's a it's a puzzling statement that Paul made you know I thank God that I've baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius and that's that sounds strange because you would think the more notches you could have on your cane for baptism the better it would be and Paul said I'm thankful that I didn't baptize anybody there except Crispus and

[50:10] Gaius and I don't even know remember did I baptize anybody and that's that's that seems strange it doesn't doesn't fit the narrative that most Baptists would have us believe anything else before we dismiss for coffee and cookies Dolly what do you think the fake news takes what do you think the fake news take will be on the rapture oh my I've wondered about that I it's a good question what will what will the fake news explanation be for the rapture I don't know but I'll tell you I'll tell you something this is something that I've I've given a little bit of thought to and it could very well be and I'm not I'm not saying that this is the way it's going to be but we know something firsthand of a worldwide pandemic there could be something lurking out there that we are not aware of that could make the death toll in this pandemic look small by comparison it could be something that is so devastating that it could take hundreds of millions of lives and that could figure in with the rapture that I I don't know I don't know Joe I can't take your question but I'm already past time sorry sorry we'll continue this next week but it'll be with the bylaws so keep this if you know no I've got another one got the bylaws you can take this one home or keep it or whatever but we'll have more things thank you thank you so much for your kind attention thank you